Sad day in London

[Cidien]

and also at the same time to try and secure us oil so we can use it until the technology does become mainstream enough to replace it..

To elaborate on this Bush wants to drill more in Alaska but most democrats don't. Personally I think it's because most of them just oppose anything Bush wants to do. Heck, they even blasted him for signing a bill to allocate the most new funds to the school systems EVER even though it was their plan. They claim they are protecting some carribou or however you spell it. How many people actually care? (when you consider the benefits)

[Schultz]

To elaborate on this Bush wants to drill more in Alaska but most democrats don't. Personally I think it's because most of them just oppose anything Bush wants to do. Heck, they even blasted him for signing a bill to allocate the most new funds to the school systems EVER even though it was their plan. They claim they are protecting some carribou or however you spell it. How many people actually care? (when you consider the benefits)

To comment on this i actually watched a tv show about them drilling in Alaska and the part they will be drilling won't affect the Carabu and also the local towns are actually welcoming it because it would bring in money into there small local communitys and such. which i could find some info on the internet with more detailed info on it.

[Elcoholic]

The media does not show what is truely happening.. And how alot of people there are happy we are there.. some places were insurgents are mainly at are having a rough time. BUt Iraq itself is starting to do more and more missions by themselves and getting insurgents weeded out. we can only do so much but we gotta make sure that the Iraqi people themselves take it the rest of the way and we can not stop our support for them until they are 110% able to do it by themselves.. which they are starting to do.. But no the media won't show that because it don't sell.. it don't show the countless humanitarian missions that Soldiers do while they are deployed to help local citys and such out.. Nah because that doesn't rate well. Everyone rather likes to see the bad stuff not the good stuff.. and if you would like to see some "good" helping out from people that have taken pictuers i still have some laying around if you want the "true" truth of what is happening behind the scenes.

You see, I've seen you post this kind of stuff more than once but I read other comments from people who are there and our various news channels also report something else. Example from the arcticnightfall boards after asking what's going on over there posted less than 2 months ago.

If you really must know, there's a lot of bull****. Bush makes all these announcements stating that we're really winning over the Iraqi people...when in all actuality, it's the Iraqi people that are causing us the most trouble, not just the insurgents. The Iraqi's won't help us at all when it comes to hunting the bastards down, even though we're offering them so much in return, 500,000 dollars, immunity, all the good ****. The turmoil goes deeper than any of you will ever know though, and goes so far to the point where the military is covering up the deaths of people....I can't say here the specifics obviously because I'd get in deep ****. But that's what's going on. Where the media and the President say we're making progress, we're actually making the opposite....more and more people are dying over here everyday, and not all of it is because of the insurgents, or because we got ambushed, if you get my point. Anyways, back to the subject at hand.

Kind of conflicts with what you said and I've read more troops post this stuff than troops saying its getting better. Then we are all here talking about London (which is awefull and scared me alot since its so close) but the day after the London bombing on an ordinary day in Iraq there were 34 people killed by 3 suicide bombers. 28 of which were killed outside a police recruiting station and a bomb filled car drove into them. This was before noon I believe so the day wasn't over yet. Kind of puts things in perspective.

Attacks have been on the increase since the elections and again when the new parlement was installed. I've said it before, I believe that in the war on terror invading Iraq was one of the stupidest things to do. Ofcourse there was a dictator (BTW, I wonder who has killed more Iraqi civilions by now. Bush or Saddam) but there are soo many dictators and there are many who are waaay worse than Saddam so I don't buy that excuse. But by invading Iraq the hate on the US and the west has infenitly grown. The US has created another batch of people who believe in the Jihad as Osama does. Stupid move and the world is paying the price.

About europe and the oil for food program. I haven't kept up to date on this but I believe this has nothing to do with european governments and this was all done by companies. If in my country it would become clear that the government was involved they would resign the next day as it should happen in a democracy. Something I could and should expect of a certain president who went to war on false grounds based on blatant lies. Or when holding prisoners without trial or council for more than 3 years. Or abussing prisoners of war in Abu-Graib. This is one of the things that worries me about US politics. That all these scandals can just happen without anyone taking responsibility.

I must say I'm very impressed with the way the Londonners have handled themselfs in this situation. They stay so calm and it seems it has only made them stronger. They don't seem scared at all and they were using the tubes the next day again. Especially now that it seems that the tube bombings were not done by suicide bombers and that means that the mofo's are still out there.

[Andromeda18_]

I've had a question on my mind for a very long time now. We who live in democracies are always saying democracy is great, democracy this and democracy that but have we ever stopped and asked ourselves if everyone wants to live in a democracy? If it fits every culture? I mean, I'm glad I live in a democracy but are we so narrow-minded as to think there's no good alternative to democracy or even that everyone, without exception, wants to live in a democracy? My country was under the rule of a tirant for over 50 years, things were bad, not as bad as in Iraq but bad nonetheless. Yet, the people took matters into their own hands, the military which are before anything else part of the people rose against the dictator and successfuly defeated him. People here would've hated if we were invaded by another country even if that country was trying to help us, it would be worst than the dictatorship itself because nobody likes it when a neighbour sticks it's nose in our private affairs. And the most amazing thing is that although it was a bad dictatorship more and more people say there were a lot of things back then that were much better than they are now and wish they were back in that time. I personally think they're foolish but I can't help thinking democracy definitely isn't for everyone. I know this probably shocks a lot of people but it's true. When the war in Iraq was about to start I heard a man, who had lived there for many years, say those people, that culture, needed to be ruled by a strong leader, a strong hand. For as bad as Sadam was, and he was bad, there's no denying it, the truth is he kept things in check which is something the US clearly aren't able to do, everything and everyone's running loose. And when it comes to the death count I truly wonder who at this point has victimized more innocents and who has dealt more damage to that country.
All polititians are dirty, some more than others but being dirty is almost a job requirement. I belive the greatest problem with the US, far more than dirty polititians, is this idea that it's your godly mission to extend democracy all over the world. It's not! People might not want it no matter how amazing people from democratic countries say it is and nobody has the right to tell other people how they should live. History has shown us time and time again that the people itself can and will fight back when they can no longer withstand the opression. Democracy or any just, free system is something one conquers not something one is forcefully fed.

[Elcoholic]

That's a good question. In theory Iraq was a democracy. But the most important thing about a democracy is not the electing of your leader but the split between the 3 powers (I think it was the judges, police department and the government). In Iraq this was not the case since no judge could reject a decission made by Saddam.Also not all democracy's are the same. The US and Britain have a 2 party system where for example my country has 5 big parties and a dozen small ones. After an election a couple of parties have to work together to form a majority. There is never one party in complete control which I personally think works better. The downside is that there are always compromises made. And there are lots of differences between the judicial systems which make for some interesting discussions. So not all western democracy's are the same and they have some pretty big differences.

I do think that democracy can work anywhere. I believe the power to elect your leader should be in the hands of the people and combined with a max. term for the leader (like the US president can only stay 2 terms) could work anywhere and is the best system. But it shouldn't be forced upon them since people tend to reject what is forced on them. In the case of Iraq only time will tell since you have all these egocentric factions there based on different religions or ethnicities and they all have very little tolerance for eachother. I really have no idea how this is going to work out. I just hope that it won't take too long till they see that all these attacks don't help them nor the Iraqi people.

[Schultz]

elcoholic for starters Yes government officials were involved in some European countries. But guess what those that were involved can't be investigated or forced to admit it until there term is up.. something to do with there countries rules.. So they are getting off the hook. Also i think its funny one of the lead investigaters for it was murdered probably because he was getting to far into who all was involved.


2nd that is my point.. Media just shows the bombing's and the kidnappings and that is what you are concentrating on. it does not show everything else in that country that is going on. And i think it is funny how you are saying we are killing the Civilians when its the Insurgents that are killling them because they can't get to many military as easiliy.. So they are going after civilians to try and scare them more.. It will happen and i will be much happier after the next election's happen in Iraq fully under there own Government.

But the Iraq people are starting to do things on there own.. They have successfully completed raids looking for Insurgents and such.. And they will only start donig more and more operations from this on.

[Elcoholic]

2nd that is my point.. Media just shows the bombing's and the kidnappings and that is what you are concentrating on. it does not show everything else in that country that is going on. And i think it is funny how you are saying we are killing the Civilians when its the Insurgents that are killling them because they can't get to many military as easiliy.. So they are going after civilians to try and scare them more.. It will happen and i will be much happier after the next election's happen in Iraq fully under there own Government.

Well, the reason I think our media (I assume your talking about European media) show all the bombings, kidnappings and other nasty stuff is because your government insists ,or at east has in the past, that its getting better. The media tries to show otherwise. And unfortunately the more awfull the event the more media attention it gets which once again gets proven by the London bombings. But you know this so I don?t know why you mention it. I don?t expect the media to cover a story of a village getting electricity over a suicide bomber killing 28 police recruits. You must know that any stability is impossible with these constant assaults on the reigning government. Also I never said that you?re not trying to make the best of it right now. I think the way this war was started was all wrong. Bombing the cities is not the best way to gain the love of the civilians (that?s also what and when I meant the US killed civilians). But then again, the aim in the beginning of this war was not to bring democracy to Iraq but to destroy those WMDs.

What I?m afraid of, but ofcourse don?t know for sure is that there?s too much hate for the US that the US can?t help solve the differences the Iraqi?s have among themselves. And there has to be an army there for a long time but if it?s not the US army then who?

[Schultz]

Well, the reason I think our media (I assume your talking about European media) show all the bombings, kidnappings and other nasty stuff is because your government insists ,or at east has in the past, that its getting better. The media tries to show otherwise. And unfortunately the more awfull the event the more media attention it gets which once again gets proven by the London bombings. But you know this so I don?t know why you mention it. I don?t expect the media to cover a story of a village getting electricity over a suicide bomber killing 28 police recruits. You must know that any stability is impossible with these constant assaults on the reigning government. Also I never said that you?re not trying to make the best of it right now. I think the way this war was started was all wrong. Bombing the cities is not the best way to gain the love of the civilians (that?s also what and when I meant the US killed civilians). But then again, the aim in the beginning of this war was not to bring democracy to Iraq but to destroy those WMDs.

What I?m afraid of, but ofcourse don?t know for sure is that there?s too much hate for the US that the US can?t help solve the differences the Iraqi?s have among themselves. And there has to be an army there for a long time but if it?s not the US army then who?

And that is where you are wrong.. So you are saying that you don't care if 1000 lives are saved in one day because aid workers and such give them food give them medical treatment that they might never of gotten otherwise? but its ok to plaster the bombings everwhere. Bad news sells.. Good news doesn't. that is what its about its not about the media showing the truth its about the media getting the ratings.. you are only making this worse and proving my point more about how media obscures what things are truely going on there.

And no offense. America is not there to solve the differences between the Iraqi people. That is something they have been given an opertunity to do. For them to work together to create something better then what they had. And this will only work if they do it. And the elections already proved the most of the Iraqi people are somewhat willing to go out and vote even if fear of getting killed.

I hate how America expects that they have to do every little piece. its like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. All we can do now is make sure that we give the Iraqi people the opertunities that they need for there own Government.

[Elcoholic]

And that is where you are wrong.. So you are saying that you don't care if 1000 lives are saved in one day because aid workers and such give them food give them medical treatment that they might never of gotten otherwise? but its ok to plaster the bombings everwhere. Bad news sells.. Good news doesn't. that is what its about its not about the media showing the truth its about the media getting the ratings.. you are only making this worse and proving my point more about how media obscures what things are truely going on there.

And no offense. America is not there to solve the differences between the Iraqi people. That is something they have been given an opertunity to do. For them to work together to create something better then what they had. And this will only work if they do it. And the elections already proved the most of the Iraqi people are somewhat willing to go out and vote even if fear of getting killed.

I hate how America expects that they have to do every little piece. its like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. All we can do now is make sure that we give the Iraqi people the opertunities that they need for there own Government.

Well, we have a very different point of view about what the news should be. You say they are obscurring the good things. If they would just show the good things the whole world would say that the 'news' is obscurring the truth which is people are dying there every day in a war started by the US.

I never said I don't care about 1000 lives saved by aid workers. Its just that I wouldn't expect anything else. Its no news becuase that's the way its supposed to be. The US owes it to the Iraq people and the world to give aid to that country. If you wouldn't give aid those people would have died because the US destroyed the infrastructure in the beginning of the war. Under Saddam they were surviving and just how would it look if under the US control everyone would die (in no way implying that everything was fine under Saddam). Actually your right. I don't care about that. It will be news when those people get back their safety in their own country. It would also be news if the US left them to rot.

America has to stay there till they can safely rule their own country which will only be possible till the different factions learn to work together in harmony. So in my eyes it is the US duty to help solve the differences. You won't be able to leave till they are solved. The US started that war without provocation, without cause and now they have to finish it and I doubt if they can. That's why I said that.

And ofcourse I think that the US needs to do every little piece. They started this on their own so you have to take the responsibility to finish it on your own if noone wants to help. I think this war never should have happened but if it had to be done it should have been done with UN consent. Your government decided to not do that and are now facing some of the concequences. I too would like to see more countries helping out but I can't blame them for not doing it because its too dangerous. In my eyes its too dangerous now because of the way the US started the war and so the entire situation the US is in now is their own fault.

I'm quite shocked to read the way your downplaying the constant assaults. Especially since it are/might be people you know or work with. It is the most important factor against stability in that country. I really don't understand why you would want the media to not show the awfull things that are still happening there (and in Afghanistan too btw).

[Schultz]

I'm quite shocked to read the way your downplaying the constant assaults. Especially since it are/might be people you know or work with. It is the most important factor against stability in that country. I really don't understand why you would want the media to not show the awfull things that are still happening there (and in Afghanistan too btw).

I am not downplaying them they are the truth.. But why i don't want the media to show it all the time? because Majority people belive only what they see on the media. Since they don't see anything good happening in the media then belvie that nothing good is happening at all and no progress is being made.

But your a different type of person you are more rational and can understand that good things are happening but majority of people are not like that. Majority people only believe what they actually See on the TV.

Though your whole post i do agree with one thing. no matter what we gotta stay there for the whole thing and we can't backout doing a half ass job no matter the consequence..


and sorry to post this part OT i read this yesterday and was impressed by the AFgan people. how they actually protected a US SEAL.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/07...index.html

[Elcoholic]

I am not downplaying them they are the truth.. But why i don't want the media to show it all the time? because Majority people belive only what they see on the media. Since they don't see anything good happening in the media then belvie that nothing good is happening at all and no progress is being made.

I see your point now and agree. I haven't looked at it in the big picture and there are indeed too many people left who take the news in as gospel. There should be more balance. I don't know if it should replace the assaults on the eight o'clock news but there should indeed be more positive programs which show the good things that are done. If only to help motivate the people serving and their family's back home. Good point! Unfortunatly I doubt the news will change anytime soon.

Thanks for that story. Took some pop-up offers to get to it but it was a good story. Although I didn't know that the resistence in Afghanistan was still that strong as in there are still large battles being fought there. Those civilians deserve a medal for risking their lives like that.

[geo85]

I dont know about anyone else but aside from NY1 for local stuff like transit news or weather the only news I watch is the daily show and yes I know its not news, but its F***n hillarious. And they usually have great guests that talk about whats relevant to the us not just sit on opposite sides of the tv screen and yell at eachother or namecall, I cant stand to watch most news because its all just thsi person got shot or this person got hit by a car.

Well they use to say that that is what gets them ratings right, well a report was released not too long ago showing news viewership is down 50% not even cnn could get more than 430,000 veiwers. So now what gets ratings, wait......wait....oh well maybe if ...you talk about.........relevant topics like.....education, and healthcare and socail security or why congress cant get shit done anymore. Then they could also put the hard questions to the politicians and not accept a bs runaround answer that we hear all too often.

[rav96]

Just like to say that the Terrorist attacks are HORRIFYING and DISPICABLE!!!

my heart goes out to all the victims and their families

i was sooo shocked last week and am also shocked to find out that the terrorist are british born Muslims... i hope they all burn in hell

now thanks to them they are going to put a rift between communities and now all brown people will get abuse from ignorant white people... it was bad enough after 9-11 esp when you are of British born and bred sikh of punjab/indian ethnic origin and are getting abuse coz islamic terrorist crap

im British and see myself that way i have no loyalties to where my origins are though im proud of them and respect them...i have no idea how British borns could even think of such a crime...?????

im gonna sound racist now but i frankly dont care...

what the f*cK is up with all these Jihad Bullshit from radiclist Islamics all they do is attack innocent people of all ethnic backgrounds including their own muslim people???!?!????

damn f*ckers i wanna kill them myself...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

[Batz Kage]

Just like to say that the Terrorist attacks are HORRIFYING and DISPICABLE!!!

my heart goes out to all the victims and their families

i was sooo shocked last week and am also shocked to find out that the terrorist are british born Muslims... i hope they all burn in hell

now thanks to them they are going to put a rift between communities and now all brown people will get abuse from ignorant white people... it was bad enough after 9-11 esp when you are of British born and bred sikh of punjab/indian ethnic origin and are getting abuse coz islamic terrorist crap

im British and see myself that way i have no loyalties to where my origins are though im proud of them and respect them...i have no idea how British borns could even think of such a crime...?????

im gonna sound racist now but i frankly dont care...

what the f*cK is up with all these Jihad Bullshit from radiclist Islamics all they do is attack innocent people of all ethnic backgrounds including their own muslim people???!?!????

damn f*ckers i wanna kill them myself...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

yeah it was sometime after I read this thread that I started to worry about you bro; I figured people would start being a bit more racist towards you & your family; but it's good to hear from you & congradz on graduating (I walked in about 30 seconds after you signed off today )

[Andromeda18_]

what the f*cK is up with all these Jihad Bullshit from radiclist Islamics all they do is attack innocent people of all ethnic backgrounds including their own muslim people???!?!????

damn f*ckers i wanna kill them myself...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

Terrorists are clearly mental! Just look at Iraq! They supposedly want to get the Americans out of there yet who do they injure the most? Civilians! Even an Iraqi man was complaining about that after an attack that killed dozens of children, saying they clearly weren't aiming at the Americans, there were no Americans around. They say they want the Americans to leave Iraq alone then why the hell are they attacking the Iraqi people?! Mental! It's Hitler's mentality of "you're either with me or against me". Jackasses!