V for Vendetta

[Homeless Joe]

I've just lost any and all respect for you. People who compare Bush to Hitler are the dumbest people I know of. You should really be ashamed of yourself, but considering you'd make the comparison in the first place i'm sure you won't be.

i was reading the rest of the posts but after seeing this i felt i had to say something. my grandfather, recently passed away. he lived through the rise and fall Hitler. he fought in the German army and after the war spent time in a pow camp and eventually escaped. he lived long enough to see the world trade center go down. to see us illegitmately wage war on iraq. he has been through a lot and has first hand knowledge of what Hitler and Bush were like. before he passed he told me he was worried. that he was scared. that the things happen in America remind him too much of what was happening in Germany. how can you say that he is dumb? because he has the experience you do not? you are ignorant of what it was really like therefore how can you make statements and judge the situation accurately?

[Homeless Joe]

Guess I havn't looked at news polls in a couple months as I don't really care, but even if it is that low it doesn't really matter to me.

And i've always wondered what terrorists think too. Supposedly many of the leaders are well educated, even educated in the U.S. So why then do they do such obviously retarded things. Their targets are just so stupid... like even the 9/11 attacks. What the hell did they think we were going to do cower in the corner?

these people are fighting passoinately for ideals that they believe in. you call them terrorists because that is the label our country has given them. in their countries they are heros. they are freedom fighters. of course they expected us to respond to the 9/11 attacks. but why would that stop them? they acheived thier objective. we are fighting a war against ideals and wars against ideals can never be won by brute force alone. you need to change the minds of the people. we have only made matters worse by invading iraq. and btw cidien, the news here is so biased and messed up. i mean, the media is controlled by 5 main corporations, all right wing conservatives. you think you've never been lied too? lead to believe something that may not be true. every country has propaganda. this administration is trying to destroy our government as we know it. things were bad before but now it's worse. if things continue this way i can only imagine what will happen. i think about my future and what i will see in my life time and it's not always a nice view.

[Homeless Joe]

sorry about all the posts but i just finished reading all the other posts and i think i should clarify something i said before. bush and hitler are nothing alike. hitler was one of the most eloquent speakers in all of history. bush sounds like a dumbass. what is so scary is the similarities between the administrations. and as heads of the administrations they are often compared when, in my opinion, many people may be thinking of the adminastrations rather then the people themselves.

[Andromeda18_]

these people are fighting passoinately for ideals that they believe in. you call them terrorists because that is the label our country has given them. in their countries they are heros. they are freedom fighters. of course they expected us to respond to the 9/11 attacks. but why would that stop them? they acheived thier objective. we are fighting a war against ideals and wars against ideals can never be won by brute force alone. you need to change the minds of the people. we have only made matters worse by invading iraq. and btw cidien, the news here is so biased and messed up. i mean, the media is controlled by 5 main corporations, all right wing conservatives. you think you've never been lied too? lead to believe something that may not be true. every country has propaganda. this administration is trying to destroy our government as we know it. things were bad before but now it's worse. if things continue this way i can only imagine what will happen. i think about my future and what i will see in my life time and it's not always a nice view.

You know, I've always had a similar opinion. Similar in the sense that while a country such as America has an army to fight its wars, a country such as Iraq doesn't (well, not anymore). So, when its people wants to fight against the agressor only (what we call) terrorism is available to them. Of course, although I understand their purposes, I don't agree one bit with the attacks perpetrated on civilians. In Iraq, the majority of those attacks affect mostly the Iraqi population. That's just not right. Nor are right attacks based on religious fundamentalism. There's nothing good about the jihad, it's blatant discrimination.
It's true America (as well as other countries) is getting what it sewed, should've kept it's nose out of other countries' businesses, but in my opinion, nothing will ever justify the death of innocent people, no matter who's causing those deaths.

[Cidien]

i was reading the rest of the posts but after seeing this i felt i had to say something. my grandfather, recently passed away. he lived through the rise and fall Hitler. he fought in the German army and after the war spent time in a pow camp and eventually escaped. he lived long enough to see the world trade center go down. to see us illegitmately wage war on iraq. he has been through a lot and has first hand knowledge of what Hitler and Bush were like. before he passed he told me he was worried. that he was scared. that the things happen in America remind him too much of what was happening in Germany. how can you say that he is dumb? because he has the experience you do not? you are ignorant of what it was really like therefore how can you make statements and judge the situation accurately?

No offense to your grandpa, but it's still stupid to compare germany in ww2 to america...

And I call them terrorists because instead of attacking a uniformed army they attack civilians on purpose. They attack their OWN goddamn civilians on purpose.

Also, I still don't know how you people can say it's an illigitimate or illegal war. Show me where it's illegal. The UN should have been in there when Saddam broke the UN sanctions the first time, never mind the second.. third... never hear any agruements to this point though, just more comments on how illegal the war is. At least people quit saying it's all for oil. How we're going to steal all of iraqs oil and leave them broke wah wah wah.

"the media is controlled by 5 main corporations, all right wing conservatives. you think you've never been lied too?"

Which is populated of I believe 80% liberals....

"bush sounds like a dumbass."

Have you ever heard him speak? Not the three second clips the media gets every once in a while of him slipping on his words. I mean in person. I heard him in person and wasn't expecting much. He was one of the best speakers i've heard, and he was talking about something as boring as social security reform...

[Cidien]

It's true America (as well as other countries) is getting what it sewed, should've kept it's nose out of other countries' businesses, but in my opinion, nothing will ever justify the death of innocent people, no matter who's causing those deaths.

You know I kinda wanna say that too. There are times I want to say fuck everybody and just take care of america. But then I realize how selfish that is. America does what it can to help people. Even with so much that got screwed up i'm still proud we're trying to do the right thing. Also, i've always wondered if we had invaded another country like North korea, if people wouldn't be asking why not go after Saddam. I mean, he has broken all those UN sanctions and he might even have WMD's right?

...

[Zagatto]

There are times when I wish I didn't have to read through every thread in this forum (or at least every one that looks like it should be moderated). Every support I read from Cidien is based on his opinion without any reality to back it up. When someone points out that Bush is currently experiencing the least support from his people compared to ANY previous president he just says... oh... I don't watch the news that closely. Or he says that the news is populated by what he believes to be 80% liberals.

There's no support here beyond what he's grown to believe and he believes it so strongly that no amount of arguing is going to change his beliefs regardless of what FACTS he is presented with. His belief and how he's seen someone present a prepared speech are enough to get him through the day.

I want to move this to the "place that shall not be named" just so I don't have to read it any more. I get so worked up when I read some of these replies that I want to throw my keyboard across the room. The fact that there are so many people in the world that are so rooted in their beleifs that they make up facts just to support their arguments frustrates me. The fact that there are enough of these people in our country to run the show scares me beyond description.

For the record, even though I currently live in Canada I am an American citizen. I still care very deeply for my country and the people that live in it as well as the liberties promised by our forefathers in the Constitution.

[Andromeda18_]

At least people quit saying it's all for oil.

Have we forgotten all about the weapons of mass destruction Iraq was supposed to have? Those weapons whose existence lead the US to invade Iraq? 'Cause regardless of secondary (or very much primary) interests that was the reason given by the US to justify their attacks on Iraq. Can somebody please tell me where those weapons are? Oh, wait, wasn't there something on the news about that information not being so reliable after all?

[Elcoholic]

No offense to your grandpa, but it's still stupid to compare germany in ww2 to america...

And I call them terrorists because instead of attacking a uniformed army they attack civilians on purpose. They attack their OWN goddamn civilians on purpose.

Also, I still don't know how you people can say it's an illigitimate or illegal war. Show me where it's illegal. The UN should have been in there when Saddam broke the UN sanctions the first time, never mind the second.. third... never hear any agruements to this point though, just more comments on how illegal the war is. At least people quit saying it's all for oil. How we're going to steal all of iraqs oil and leave them broke wah wah wah.

"the media is controlled by 5 main corporations, all right wing conservatives. you think you've never been lied too?"

Which is populated of I believe 80% liberals....

"bush sounds like a dumbass."

Have you ever heard him speak? Not the three second clips the media gets every once in a while of him slipping on his words. I mean in person. I heard him in person and wasn't expecting much. He was one of the best speakers i've heard, and he was talking about something as boring as social security reform...

Zaggato, I so know how you feel. But you don't have to move it.

You still don't know why the vast majority of the world sees this war as illegal? You must have heard the arguments a thousand times but if you choose not to remember them, well what can we say. All I'll say is I'd rather have someone break economic UN sanctions then break the foundation of the UN as in no country attacks another (non threatening) country on its own. I'd so like to type another page up but we've been there, done that and if you keep your head in the sand there's not much we can do.

You saying Bush is the best speaker ever made me laugh so hard and get mad at the same time cause either that's all you've heard or,... I can't think up another reason. He is so bad when speaking in public its embarrising for the most powerfull country in the world that they have a president which has a problem pronouncing half the words in the english dictionary. And he is soo slow its sleep inducing. Its like 3 words, 2 second pauze while looking at the crowd with that fake smile and then another 3 words. I've seen many speeches of him including the 3 presidential election debates in full and he's just repeating what he's been told. He comes across as not even understanding what he's saying. And yes, the 3 second clips you're talking about represent him very very well. Its not like its 1 or 2 clips. There are dozens of those mistakes. Its not bad luck, he just sucks at public speaking. Plus, he ALWAYS says the same things. You should watch the daily show a bit more (and no, that's not what I base my opinion on, but damn, they're good making fun of Bush and often they're right in pointing out mistakes and stupid stuff, and it might be good for you to watch the extreme's of the other side).

Take a look at a Clinton speech or interview and you'll see how its suppose to be done, that guy has brains. I'll guarantee you that Bush will never have an all out interview with european (bbc) television. He would not be able to handle the critical questions from journalists with twice his IQ and he knows it. I've never seen a critical interview with Bush, its always giving him the opporunity to show people his point of view, not discuss his policy's with people who oppose it. FFS, his wife would be a better speaker and he knows it and puts her next to him in every interview. I think he's scared because he can't defend himself with his own words.

I have a feeling you're someone that'll never, ever vote someting other that republican and you change your beliefs to whatever theirs are. I think you're born into a republican family like so many americans. It just sucks that you can't think for yourselfs. That's why this moron (Bush) is elected again. Over here we look at each party with a blank slate every election. Its not uncomon to vote for the left one election and vote right 4 years later if you agree with their points. In america i think the majority is so stuck with either republican or democrat party that they'll vote for them regardless because they don't know anything else.

[Cidien]

You know what, most of what I say I don't read on the internet or if I do I don't bookmark it so I can link just for a conversation like this. The 80% liberals comment comes from my political science class teacher who by the way, is a liberal. I guess i'll just group myself with you guys now if it makes you feel better. Bush is the devil. He hates everyone and is trying to invade iraq to finish his dads war and take all of Iraqs oil. He's stealing all the oil and giving it to his oil buddies. The UN is a fine organization doing its best and Bush should have waited years until 130% concrete evidence was found against Saddam and then went in with the UNs approval. Oh, and he shouldn't have hoodwinked the entire US senate into believeing there were WMDs when he KNEW there were none. What a jerk. Did I miss anything? Sure I missed a lot. Lemme know and i'll agree with that too if it makes ya feel a little less angry.

Also, I didn't say Bush was the best speaker ever, I said he was one of the better speakers i've ever heard. There is a huge difference. And if you want to laugh at that go ahead. Glad I made ya laugh I guess. Oh and I do watch the daily show. It's pretty funny. And you're right, Clinton is a good public speaker. I wouldn't confuse that with brains though...

Also, if Lieberman were to run i'd vote for him over many republicans, including Bush. Only thing I really don't like about lieberman is his anti-game stances. =/ Him and Hilary really need to learn wtf a video game even is before they go all psycho about regulating them. I don't remember who it was or even if it was one of these two but a senator was quoted once talking about violent video games and how bad they are. Two of the games he mentioned don't even exist lol. They wern't even close to anything he could have confused them with. Oh and my parents never talked about politics either. They were rather surprised when I started taking an interest myself and decided to be a republican.

[gubi-gubi]

Just read this link about Iraq

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4849744.stm

This got my attention:

"The memo indicates both leaders acknowledged it was possible no unconventional weapons would be found in Iraq before the invasion, the New York Times says.

The note cites Mr Bush suggesting three ways in which Iraq could be provoked into confrontation.

The US "was thinking of flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours", Mr Bush said.

If Saddam fired on them, the Iraqis would be in breach of UN resolutions, he suggested.

He also indicated the US "might be able to bring out a defector" to talk about Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, and mentioned a proposal to assassinate the Iraqi leader. "

So basically they were going to get someone to lie about the WMDs even though they knew there wasn't going to be any found. Provoking Saddam and making out it would be better for them if Saddam killed some kids as it would be a reason they could invade... Still think the war was for the good of the people?

[Elcoholic]

You know what, most of what I say I don't read on the internet or if I do I don't bookmark it so I can link just for a conversation like this. The 80% liberals comment comes from my political science class teacher who by the way, is a liberal. I guess i'll just group myself with you guys now if it makes you feel better. Bush is the devil. He hates everyone and is trying to invade iraq to finish his dads war and take all of Iraqs oil. He's stealing all the oil and giving it to his oil buddies. The UN is a fine organization doing its best and Bush should have waited years until 130% concrete evidence was found against Saddam and then went in with the UNs approval. Oh, and he shouldn't have hoodwinked the entire US senate into believeing there were WMDs when he KNEW there were none. What a jerk. Did I miss anything? Sure I missed a lot. Lemme know and i'll agree with that too if it makes ya feel a little less angry.

Also, I didn't say Bush was the best speaker ever, I said he was one of the better speakers i've ever heard. There is a huge difference. And if you want to laugh at that go ahead. Glad I made ya laugh I guess. Oh and I do watch the daily show. It's pretty funny. And you're right, Clinton is a good public speaker. I wouldn't confuse that with brains though...

Also, if Lieberman were to run i'd vote for him over many republicans, including Bush. Only thing I really don't like about lieberman is his anti-game stances. =/ Him and Hilary really need to learn wtf a video game even is before they go all psycho about regulating them. I don't remember who it was or even if it was one of these two but a senator was quoted once talking about violent video games and how bad they are. Two of the games he mentioned don't even exist lol. They wern't even close to anything he could have confused them with. Oh and my parents never talked about politics either. They were rather surprised when I started taking an interest myself and decided to be a republican.

Going a bit overboad there buddy. Bush is not the devil, there is no devil in my world. But he's no angel either and I do belive he wanted to invade Iraq regardless and I do believe he made up the WMD's. How else could this happen, you're in Iraq for 3 years now and still found nothing (I'd expect the US to know EXACTLTY where they are if they're going to invade on those grounds) AND he lied before about the Bin Laden connection. I believe he didn't want the oil for himself but he did want acces to it. Something not possible under current UN sanctions (there's ALOT of oil there). The UN isn't working great, they're slow as hell but looking at past events you'll see what leads to acting to quick. A war on false grounds. The idea of a group of countries trying to keep the peace is a good idea. We DO need a council like that. No doubt.

I'd just like to see your reaction if China invades Korea or Taiwan. Or Russia decides to take back some of those split countries. Cause that's what I (and I think WE) are afraid of. Its been proven now that the UN can't do anything to big countries like that acting on their own. Just make up some excuse and go for it before the UN can speak its mind.

I was wrong at laughing at your respect for Bush, I appologize but it was honestly the first time I heard anyone call him a good speaker. It is your president so I can imagine him leaving a big impression behind. Heck, as much as i dislike him it'd be cool to say you've been in the presence of the most powerfull man in the world.

Is Lieberman a democrat? I'd love to be here and argue on the same side if he would run but as I said I try to look at both sides each election (not that it matters since I can't vote over there anyway).

[Schultz]

ok i am not going to reply to everything but Since every keeps talking about bush this bush did that.

Clinton also had plans to attack Iraq for failing to coroperate with U.N.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_ea...12-16.html

Clinton first to link Al-Qaeda to Saddam
http://www.washtimes.com/national/200406...-3401r.htm

Clinton would of done the same exact thing.
Clinton then would be in probably the same position as Bush.

Bush picked up his intellegence also from the Clinton Administration. He also picked up his Iraq plan which clinton had one.. Its just that Bush was the one to finally execute it and go through with it.

So people better start hating Clinton administration too. Because it started with them and went through to the Bush administration.

And after some more reading supposdly Saddam's own military belived they had WMD's. but i am tryin to find a more credible link so take this last sentance as gossip until i could find one.

[Homeless Joe]

Clinton would of done the same exact thing.
Clinton then would be in probably the same position as Bush.

i respect your opinion and all but i think it's really dangerous to start commenting on possiblities as if they were facts. no on really knows for certain what clinton would have done in this situation, we can only assume. but i think it's good for people to realize the us governemnt is not some shinning white light pure of any evil. they have dirty hands just like any other country maybe even more than many. and about bush's speaking skills: he did not speak to parliament while in england as every other president had because they were afraid they would make fun of him too badly. i don't know if you have noticed, but i can't stand his goofy smile and stupid laugh everytime he talks. i was watching him talk about the war and he was smiling. wtf. my friend is fighting in iraq and it's nothing to smile about, i've heard some of his stories and i'm sure there are many more and for the leader of the country to stand in front of us and talk about this terrible topic with a damn smile on his face is something i couldn't take. i had to get up and walk away i was so pissed.

[Schultz]

i respect your opinion and all but i think it's really dangerous to start commenting on possiblities as if they were facts. no on really knows for certain what clinton would have done in this situation, we can only assume. but i think it's good for people to realize the us governemnt is not some shinning white light pure of any evil. they have dirty hands just like any other country maybe even more than many. and about bush's speaking skills: he did not speak to parliament while in england as every other president had because they were afraid they would make fun of him too badly. i don't know if you have noticed, but i can't stand his goofy smile and stupid laugh everytime he talks. i was watching him talk about the war and he was smiling. wtf. my friend is fighting in iraq and it's nothing to smile about, i've heard some of his stories and i'm sure there are many more and for the leader of the country to stand in front of us and talk about this terrible topic with a damn smile on his face is something i couldn't take. i had to get up and walk away i was so pissed.

Yes you are right we can't. But i hate people that pick out just bush when Clinton administration also had these plans / ideas. its just Bush that executed on them.

2nd then you need to really learn politics and other stuff. There are some people that naturally have a smile on there face. I have seen it in boot camp there are some people that no matter what naturally have a smile. To me i felt sorry for them because they caught alot of the flack from our Boot camp instructures because when they were yelling at them they always had a smile. When they made them do the worst stuff they always had a smile. It was *part* of them littlely nothing they could do about it.