Yo! I am new here

[Blight]

The way you act screams that you always think nature has a purpose... What was natures purpose to make a baby that has no legs? What's the function? Why make hermaphrodites? You can't deny that people are born hermaphrodite so why is it so hard to think somebody is born gay?

So do you, but you are on the other side of the coin. You think nature had purposely intended some people to be gay. I don't think nature intends anything anymore. There is no meaning in anything; people create meaning. I do it all the time, try to justify my reasoning of worldly issues with romantic ideals that I nearly exclusively believe in. I just don't care that people may think I'm foolish or insane or an ass. I'm me, how I became me is irrelevant.

Whoa, starting to rant, anyway my point is that at the end. I no longer find any significance in how or why a person is the way they are. They are just people, I may have my own personally reasoning for why someone could be a certain way but know that they are private theories and I don?t know any better then anyone else. It has been fun, and more importantly, augmenting to have this discussion. I feel that I have discerned many things from realizing that I don?t know something even after brooding over them for so long; knowing that you don?t know, what you don?t know and all that.

[Andromeda18_]

You have said that it has nothing to do with brain chemistry and that the gay gene is crap, what biology is left? If biology determines you to be gay why didn't nature make you the other sex? This is why when people try to argue that being gay is a naturally thing, or even unnatural, they get shot down.

You're wrong! I said scientists had been searching for long and hadn't found anything yet. However, animals have no personality, they don't make choices in their lives, biology is what drives them. Yet they still have sex don't they? Whether it is with animals of the same sex or the opposite sex, but it really isn't a matter of choice it's a matter of instinct. Same thing with humans, sexuality isn't a matter of choice, you're born with it, it's natural, it's instinctive.

[AGCTU]

Hello I'm also new here. I was reading the posts here and I decided to give my opininon.

First of all, I see that a lot of people here are debating if this is natural or not.What we all must keep in mind is that nature itself doesn't have opinions like Blight said. Opinions are formed by subjective points of view like ours. We must keep in mind that objective views do not exist. Even science is not objective. Don't forget Heisenbergs uncertainty principle. So it is beyond us to judge if something is natural or not. We cannot even know if we objectively exist for sure, much less pass objective judgements on others. You can pass subjective judgements if you like but if you try to pass them like objective ones you are just deluding yourself. With that out of the way let me give my subjective view on the subject: Anyone can do what one wants.

[Black Howling]

Anyone can do what one wants.

What if that one wants something that is opposite to what another wants? (I know that sentence is a little confusing...but I don't care)

[Blight]

What if that one wants something that is opposite to what another wants? (I know that sentence is a little confusing...but I don't care)

It depends if you are on the popular side, if not you either fight for what you hold dear or you accept that you are fucked and give up (other wise know as being a coward). All things socially accepted are derived from what is common in most of the population. Normality is the rule of the mob and the mob always rules.

[Black Howling]

It depends if you are on the popular side, if not you either fight for what you hold dear or you accept that you are fucked and give up (other wise know as being a coward). All things socially accepted are derived from what is common in most of the population. Normality is the rule of the mob and the mob always rules.

I know what you mean. If you are in a room full of idiots and they all have blind opinions then no matter how smart you are you are fucked! The only option left is to hurt them and sometimes they don't learn. In the end you have too kill them and then lay low for a while maybe Mexico or Ireland. Untill the police stop looking for you. It's a sad life...

[babyeater0]

We cannot even know if we objectively exist for sure, much less pass objective judgements on others. You can pass subjective judgements if you like but if you try to pass them like objective ones you are just deluding yourself. With that out of the way let me give my subjective view on the subject: Anyone can do what one wants.

I have to disagree with you on that.

First off if we were to stop passing judgements of others, society would go into disarray. For example you have a serial killer, if you do not pass the judgement that that mans actions are wrong then he will go on taking lives. However if you do judge him to be wrong you can then put a stop to him and what he wishes to do, then punish him for his crimes. There are certain things in this life that are considered wrong, they are wrong because the human conscience tells us they are wrong. To bring up some dispshit philosophical question is udder stupidity when you think in these terms. Life isn't a candy coated existence in which one can do what they want, judgement is needed to keep order.

That brings me to my next topic existence. Existence is very hard to explain, the best way (in my opinion) to put it is that existence is our personality and how that personality views things and reacts to things. We all know we are alive because there are others to confirm that existence, and are own thoughts to do the same. We can sense the things around us and get to know other humans who live in this same existence.

So yes we do have the right to judge others.

[Andromeda18_]

Hello I'm also new here. I was reading the posts here and I decided to give my opininon.

First of all, I see that a lot of people here are debating if this is natural or not.What we all must keep in mind is that nature itself doesn't have opinions like Blight said. Opinions are formed by subjective points of view like ours. We must keep in mind that objective views do not exist. Even science is not objective. Don't forget Heisenbergs uncertainty principle. So it is beyond us to judge if something is natural or not. We cannot even know if we objectively exist for sure, much less pass objective judgements on others. You can pass subjective judgements if you like but if you try to pass them like objective ones you are just deluding yourself. With that out of the way let me give my subjective view on the subject: Anyone can do what one wants.

I'm very much aware that Nature doesn't have opinions which is why I told Black Howling "Nature doesn't think". Opinions are obviously formed by subjective points of view. However, I think discussing this from a more philosophical point of view is just going to make things even more confusing.
In my opinion it's exactly because Nature doesn't think or have opinions that everything which is created by Nature is natural. Let me give you an example, if a 3 eyed fish is born in the wild I believe it to be natural. It might not be usual, we humans regard it as a mutation but it is natural nonetheless. However, if that fish is born because of radiation from a nuclear power plant then that mutation was indirectly caused by humans and therefore it isn't natural.

[Puppet Master]

It depends if you are on the popular side, if not you either fight for what you hold dear or you accept that you are fucked and give up (other wise know as being a coward). All things socially accepted are derived from what is common in most of the population. Normality is the rule of the mob and the mob always rules.

That is very true and anyone who just steps down and acts like a cowering dog has no right to say anything. Just because something is socially accepted doesnt make it right its just some stupid bs that some people came up with one day. In life to get anywhere you have to fight and the mob does rule to a point. The mob rules until it is opposed and that is something I know from experience. The second someone finally decides to fight fight most ive seen seem to cower like scolded dogs. That's the only way to teach some people and that has been proven time and time again.

The other issue dealing with nature is as many have said nature has no opinions just like humans arent born evil. The realities are similar and what one believes seems to cause problems at times. The common population isnt a creation of nature but of the human mind that refuses to accept those not like them. I have known many not accepted due to that fact and I know how it is myself. Nature has nothing to do with this issue but the normal socially acceptable trash people tell themselves is what makes people puppets. To put it simple what im trying to point out. You cannot gain anything without sacrifice in this world... Hope that made sense

BTW if nature could think humanity would be gone...

[Blight]

BTW if nature could think humanity would be gone...

Yeah, reminds me of this stupid commercial I?ve been seeing lately. I think it is about aids awareness. All these animals are having a council meeting, looks like the UN of animals, and they are talking about the humans self destruction and crap and then they are like ?Save the humans, save the humans? when in actuality it would be ?DIE MOTHERF**KERS!?

[rav96]

hmmm having read this thread there are some interesting points and arguments!

but i agree Nature is all about instinct and the will of Physics
which governs everything! even biology and chemistry as the maths of it sets everything from the number of seeds on sunflowers to the symmetry in evry snowflake

[Black Howling]

hmmm having read this thread there are some interesting points and arguments!

Oh yeah! Well then tell me one thing, I said that was interesting! Good Luck.

[rav96]

lets see the crap that you spew is interesting as i cant imagine having that mindset myself :p

[Ryujin]

Ok...I've been holding off posting in this topic for a long time...mainly because its such a touchy subject and highly flamable...but meh I figure now is probably a good time.

ok I'm going to go back a few pages and work my way forward covering as much stuff as I can. So if you are one of those people who can't read more than 5 lines then look away now...anyway here goes...

Homosexuality has been around for as long as heterosexuality

Where did you get his info from? Where is your proof? have you been around since the dawn of man? if not then I wouldn't make strange blanket statements like that.

animals often display homosexual tendencies, it's normal, society is the one who sees it as abnormal.

Eh what? Again where is your proof? where did you hear this? and how is it "normal"?. When normal is considered actions that are shared by the majority of a group. I'd like to know what these "tendencies" are too and how "often" these seemingly un-named animals display these "tendencies". Anyway, as I said "society" represents the views of the majority (in general) and as I have said this is what defines "normal". So that sentence does not make much sense.

Andromeda18The thing is that prior to the existence of the Bible, in some societies, homosexuality was seen as a normal thing, then it was seen as a bad thing, then it was seen as relatively normal again and now we're back to a time where people see it as a bad thing

What?? As if the Bible spans across all countries and peoples . Again what "societies"? where? what time period?. You are going to have to substantiate and back up all of these "facts" you keep stating. Unless to you a "fact" is just you making something up, thinking it's true and then stating it as if it were. Again, how would you know if it was seen as normal or not?

That's why people should always think well about the things they're taught, they can't just accept them without giving it a second thought.

Maybe you should take your own advice.... :p

Actually we are now in general accepting it again when you look at society and laws ect. Not everyone does but the general view is that is accepted. It's alot better in the UK than the USA at the moment but laws are changing.

Again, if you're going to make statements like this at least make some attempt at backing it up.

However, even animals who live basically to eat, sleep and procriate display homosexual behaviour

Again, what the hell are you talking about? there you go again making these statements with no backing up or facts of any kind. I'm beginning to see a trend...

Ultimately they'll mate with an animal of the opposite sex in order to perpetuate their gene pool but they also try mating with animals of the same sex

Yes because the animals really hate the opposite sex and one day sit down and look to the future with all of their advanced cognative abilities and decide "yes, I simply MUST have children! what will become of the species!!!" and then say "ewwww" in disgust as they mate with the opposite sex.

How I wish you were right! It's true that in the the more industrialized countries homosexuality is accepted in a general way. However, only 25% of the world's countries are industrialized. The other 75% are poor countries in which religion and tradition are still very important and homosexuality is seen as a bad thing

Em what?? Have you been to Greece or Turkey? Hardly industrialised countries and yet gayness is far more rampant there than I have ever seen it in any "industrialised" countries. Stop saying this crap without any backup.

Yeh I suppose but by those rules then it has never been accecpted ever as it was only really ancient Greek or Roman societies that you can actually say where totally open to it. (I mean all accepeted and took part

*SIGH* A common missconception. Are you actually saying that "all" of the people acepted this and took part? not one person didn't? Seriously...you need to do your research and stop being so naive. What was actually the case was that the rich and powerful lived hedonistic lifestyles where their every whim was taken care of and they were the ones who took part in it, and sculpted naked men etc... the average or poor people didn't really go in for that stuff at all, they were too busy working long days and whatnot.

My theory on how exactly it came about was that the rich had so much spare time on their
hands and lived only for entertainment, joy and the pleasures of the flesh (food, sex etc..) that they decided to experiment. Remembering at this time that men were considered much better than women and were sometimes compared to gods, its feasable to assume that they may have thought that by mating with another man that they could create a god, at least on some level. But most likely it is because they were bored and had too much time on their hands, experimented, got acustomed to, and BAM gayness appears, simple as that. Granted that is just my take on things, I was not there nor am I claiming it as "fact" or anything

I mean stuff like the Japanese took feminine boys and dressed them as girls and sent them to war to have sex with the soldiers

Isn't that just people being pedophiles? Nothing to do with gayness there really

some old tribes (African?) making teenagers drink the sperm of the elders to 'take their wisdom'

Maybe, but they just drank it from a cup, they were hardly blowing them. Its not like they were attacted to each other or wanted to have sex or anything.

Some animals are gay and we are just nature aswell, nature created us so EVERYTHING we do is down to nature

Thats psudo logic if I have ever heard it. First of all, don't say animals are gay when you have no proof. And secondly "nature" is not some being or conscienceness that has a plan. Creatures developed on a planet, some with more intelligence than others, created social structures and from there humans created society, which everything else stems from, society, intelligence, ideas and working in groups. By your logic destroying the world with nuculear weapons is all in "nature" and a part of "nature's plan".

So what you're trying to say is that you like women simply because it's what people usually do

That's pretty much why people do anything, everything is based on society and how we interact with our environment from a young age and as we grow.

Also, you don't have to see animals being gay, they are! In reality animals are bisexual, they mate with both animals of the same sex and of the opposite sex. Most people have heard that dolphins of the same sex mate with each other, it's a very well known case but the truth is that in Nature this happens very often.

Again, where is your proof? show me a study that took place? show me pictures or video? show me any evidence to back this up...oh wait you can't because it's not true. Seriously, stop spouting this un-backup nonsense.

I have a friend who's gay and he first found out he was gay when he was 8 years old

Thats like saying "I knew I loved blowjobs when I was 4!", its just stupid, people of that age have no idea of sexuality or attractoin as they have not reached puberty yet so their hormones are not active therefore they have no sex drive, fact!.

Well in nature, for example, worms, can choose what sexuality they want to be at any given time

Yes, they have the ability to switch, we don't. Plus they are worms...they irrigate the soil, does that mean we should?

I think some of them would eventually become women because nature has a funny way of balancing things out.

Thats just dumb, we are not genetically or physically capable of a sexual metamorphases. Thats like saying you think people could change their arms into legs at will, or that if there were not enough chairs that some people would become chairs, lol

How come dolphins are almost as intelligent as us

LOL, maybe you, but not the rest of us. Just no, it's not even comparable the difference in intelligence. Stop being dumb.

That's why I said animals are bisexual right after saying they're gay, because animals have sex with the opposite sex to procreate and with the same sex for... fun!

*SIGH*

Yes because the animals really hate the opposite sex and one day sit down and look to the future with all of their advanced cognative abilities and decide "yes, I simply MUST have children! what will become of the species!!!" and then say "ewwww" in disgust as they mate with the opposite sex.

That pretty much answers that...

And some men like men because it's Natural. It's in their nature to be homosexual the same way it's in yours to be heterosexual

No, I think its a choice based on your surroundings and whatnot, but I'll cover it better later...

And by the way people who are attracted to children and animals are sick. They have a chemical inbalance in their brain which can be treated. There's no such inbalance in homosexuals's brains.

Again, where is your proof? what imbalance? what proof? show me the study, and that it is air tight, show me this "treatment". Otherwise just be quiet now.

[Ryujin]

(continued....)

Nobody WANTS to be gay they just are

I'll get to this soon...don't worry.

Gay people are the equivelant of people who take part in beastiality?

Well perhaps similar in the way that they both take part in a sexual act that is not considered "normal" and that humans are not designed to do.

Thats PURE homophobia

How does stating a similarity make you afraid of gay people? I hate when people use cop-out excuses like that. I don't think anyone here is "afraid" of gay people.

Have you ever heard the doctor in the delivery room say "Its a gay"!!!!

LOL classic, that was quite funny, good stuff.

"I want to be a engineer, so now I am".

No, the whole "born" thing is like saying "I was born an engineer" or "I was born to like *insert sexual act* here". Its dumb. Trying to take away all choice and human responsibility. Let me explain... if a person likes lets say anal sex... or latino women or something, well whats true is that in most males they begin watching porn from a young age, this is basically sexual education depending on the type of porn this can fashion your sexual likes and dislikes, the deeper in you go and the more you watch the more it changes your ideas on sex. Its all to do with accustomisation. Society and media also play a part in showing what is "attractive" and what is not etc... these things are what influence personal preference and coupled with choices and environment these can influence if someone is gay or not.

So yes it is a choice. Some people do it to rebel against their parents, some people are bored, experiment and get accustomed to it, other people are the equivelent of music posers and people who get alot of piercings etc... its all to do with how other people view them and wanting to be "different" and by different somehow "special" or stand out from the crowd. Almost everything is to do with how we would like other people to percieve us etc... most of this pretty much counters Zagatto's first post also. Society etc..

I think Blight throughout this thread makes alot of good points that I would have also made/agree with.

yet they still have homosexual relations (without it being rape)

Show me proof or shut up

And did the bear choose to be a bear? No! It was just born that way

No Gay people were born human, everything else is a choice or a tag created by society