Evolution or Creator

[Ryo of Inferno]

Here's a discussion I had with Onizuka. what do you think?

onizuka17711: I just got done responding to the "Humanities Purpose" thread
DrgnVolvagia: ah
onizuka17711: I swear, some Christians are soooooo damn stupid
DrgnVolvagia: thats true
onizuka17711: according to bathier, satanis controlling my brain
DrgnVolvagia: although I'm supposed to be one
onizuka17711: lol
DrgnVolvagia: wtf
onizuka17711: I'm an atheist
DrgnVolvagia: ah
onizuka17711: yeah, I know, you out to read some of the filth he's been writing
DrgnVolvagia: hmm maybe
DrgnVolvagia: I do beliieve there is a God
onizuka17711: not me
DrgnVolvagia: but only because everything else doesn't make sense to me
DrgnVolvagia: I mean evolution is crap...
onizuka17711: evolution is crap...
onizuka17711: onizuka17711: what are you smoking?= what is the matter with you
DrgnVolvagia: That just reminded me of that movie and the show based on it
onizuka17711: and not if you are doing drugs
onizuka17711: which show
DrgnVolvagia: Evolution
onizuka17711: It's scientifically proven based on remains that evolution is correct
onizuka17711: so humans did in fact evolve from monkeys
DrgnVolvagia: You mean like the Pig MAn
DrgnVolvagia: right...
onizuka17711: what the hell is the pig man?
DrgnVolvagia: It is an incident where evolutionists tried to prove evolution was true by putting together a skull
onizuka17711: load of shit
DrgnVolvagia: They classified it as a neanderthal or something
onizuka17711: didn't you have biology class at your school?
DrgnVolvagia: however it was a hoax as tit was proven yo be a pig skull
DrgnVolvagia: ye
DrgnVolvagia: s
DrgnVolvagia: on top of human bones
onizuka17711: a neanderthal is not a pig man
DrgnVolvagia: no its not
DrgnVolvagia: but these idiots tried to classify it as such
onizuka17711: a neanderthal is alternate race of sort of like humans that died out
DrgnVolvagia: yes I know
DrgnVolvagia: they tried to say they found some remains of one
onizuka17711: humans evolved from primates
DrgnVolvagia: I know the theory but meh
onizuka17711: how can you not believe it?h
onizuka17711: it was genetically proven too
DrgnVolvagia: ]I think if that weretrue we all would have an urge to throw feces at each other
DrgnVolvagia: It was also genetically proven that the closest to a human heart is a pigs
onizuka17711: well, it did take millions of years for the evolution to occur
onizuka17711: wrong
onizuka17711: monkeys have a 99.8% DNA match with humans
DrgnVolvagia: Ah but the closest to the human heart is a pigs
DrgnVolvagia: I didn't say about others
DrgnVolvagia: Anyway lets just agree to disagree right now all right
DrgnVolvagia: its why I hate talking about politics and religion
onizuka17711: yeah, but you should look it up on google or something
DrgnVolvagia: nah I'm fine
DrgnVolvagia: besides, don't need any more trouble at this school after all
onizuka17711: are you telling me everybody at your school doesn't believe in evolution?!
DrgnVolvagia: yes
onizuka17711: no offense, but what a stupid town!
DrgnVolvagia: It is a Christian school after all
DrgnVolvagia: Oh it gets worse
DrgnVolvagia: they don't believe in dancing either
onizuka17711: what?
DrgnVolvagia: dancing lead to the s word that should only happen after marriage, so no dancing
onizuka17711: you guys don't believe in pre-marrital sex either?
DrgnVolvagia: nope
onizuka17711: such...stupid...Christians
DrgnVolvagia: well maybe
onizuka17711: definately
DrgnVolvagia: but thats the reason they don't allow dancing here
DrgnVolvagia: it leads to premarital
onizuka17711: where you live has to be about 100 years behind we northerners
DrgnVolvagia: nope
DrgnVolvagia: This is in Riverside
DrgnVolvagia: CA
onizuka17711: never heard of it
onizuka17711: but if you guys still aren't accepting evolution, then maybe your whole town lives under a rock
DrgnVolvagia: this isn't a town
DrgnVolvagia: this is a city
onizuka17711: southern CA right?
DrgnVolvagia: and only the ppl on this campus believe that
DrgnVolvagia: yes
onizuka17711: oh, ok, good
onizuka17711: I was beginning to think that everyone there was stupid, excluding you of course
DrgnVolvagia: ah
DrgnVolvagia: I like to look at other theories but this one makes the most sense to me
DrgnVolvagia: especially with phrases like hell on earth
DrgnVolvagia: go to hell
onizuka17711: you outta at leat try looking into evolution
DrgnVolvagia: I have
DrgnVolvagia: just has alot of loopholes
onizuka17711: DrgnVolvagia: go to hell....How mean :'(
DrgnVolvagia: just naming phrases
DrgnVolvagia: sorry
onizuka17711: Christianity has a whole lot more
DrgnVolvagia: true
DrgnVolvagia: but so does politics
onizuka17711: oh, it's fine, I don't believe in hell anyways
DrgnVolvagia: I do
DrgnVolvagia: both in literal and metaphorical terms
onizuka17711: the center of the earth is filled with extremely dense molten nickel, so there is no room for a hell
DrgnVolvagia: ah but that is only a theory the same as hell
DrgnVolvagia: noone has actually been down there
DrgnVolvagia: well maybe Jules Verne
onizuka17711: no, but it's not a theory even
onizuka17711: lol
onizuka17711: it's the truth
onizuka17711: proven through experiments
DrgnVolvagia: besides
DrgnVolvagia: there is always the slight possibilty
onizuka17711: and even if there wasn't, gravity would push everyone into a ball
DrgnVolvagia: hell is of the spiritual nature after all
DrgnVolvagia: even the soul?
onizuka17711: I don't believe in souls, either
onizuka17711: iterested in buying one? lol
onizuka17711: *interested
DrgnVolvagia: sure
DrgnVolvagia: if you want to become like Bart Simpson
onizuka17711: I don't mind
onizuka17711: it would be like free cash for me
DrgnVolvagia: Anyway the reason I beleive ther is a God is because it is easier to explain
DrgnVolvagia: when humans are in trouble
DrgnVolvagia: they almost always pray to some kind of deity
onizuka17711: not me
onizuka17711: and I do fine
DrgnVolvagia: 9-11 for instance
DrgnVolvagia: I know
DrgnVolvagia: but we are talking about humanity in bulk here
DrgnVolvagia: it could also explain why there are so many religions
onizuka17711: actually, a good portion of people are atheists now
onizuka17711: and I was created by sperm and an egg, not god
DrgnVolvagia: true
DrgnVolvagia: but supposedly even sciience points to God
onizuka17711: all life originated from bacteria, not god
DrgnVolvagia: even so,
onizuka17711: come on, it's common sense
DrgnVolvagia: where did the bacteri originate from?
DrgnVolvagia: ah common sense
DrgnVolvagia: what is common sense if not a misnomer?
onizuka17711: ocean temperatures were at just the right temperature, and bacteria formed
onizuka17711: life on earth is nothing but luck
DrgnVolvagia: and how did the ocean temperatures become right
DrgnVolvagia: ah luck
onizuka17711: because we were at just the right distance from the sun
onizuka17711: luck, and not god
DrgnVolvagia: and how did that happen
onizuka17711: during the big bang, it just ended up that way
DrgnVolvagia: how did the big bang happen?
onizuka17711: notice how they have yet to find life on other places
DrgnVolvagia: Maybe because we are unique
onizuka17711: a compression of matter that exploded under the pressure of itself
DrgnVolvagia: how did that happen?
onizuka17711: matter was drawn together by gravity
DrgnVolvagia: and how did it kno wto be drawn together
onizuka17711: it didn't, gravity pulled it
onizuka17711: it's what gravity does
DrgnVolvagia: why does gravity do that?
onizuka17711: ever hear of the laws of gravity?
DrgnVolvagia: yes precisely
DrgnVolvagia: if there is a law,
onizuka17711: deals with heat and such
DrgnVolvagia: there is a lawmaker
onizuka17711: no no NO!!!!
onizuka17711: the fact that it is a law simply means that on no occassion can it be wrong
onizuka17711: scientifically proven fact
DrgnVolvagia: and how is it that some can never be wrong and become laws
DrgnVolvagia: it is because theree is one who used these principals to craete thes laws
onizuka17711: if enough experiments are conducted and the results are the same each time
DrgnVolvagia: ah
onizuka17711: yeah, scientists
DrgnVolvagia: but
DrgnVolvagia: it needs the scientist to start the experiments
DrgnVolvagia: from wht you are saying
DrgnVolvagia: the experiment can start itself with enough luck
onizuka17711: yeah, it doesn't need an observer
onizuka17711: science is all around us
DrgnVolvagia: true
onizuka17711: it controls everything
DrgnVolvagia: but a lab experiment can't start without the scientist
DrgnVolvagia: anyway like I said
onizuka17711: and your point is....
DrgnVolvagia: someone or something had to start this
DrgnVolvagia: it can't all be luck as luck runs out
onizuka17711: no, they didn't
DrgnVolvagia: that is the origin of a defeatist attitude
DrgnVolvagia: anyway
DrgnVolvagia: lets agree to disagree
onizuka17711: that i precisely the reason why it is so rare to find life on other planets
onizuka17711: ok
DrgnVolvagia: I mean you will offer one point and I'll offer another
DrgnVolvagia: its pointless to argue
onizuka17711: yes
DrgnVolvagia: I will have to read some of his stuff though
DrgnVolvagia: what was his name
onizuka17711: Hmm, you outta post this conversation and see what everyone else thinks
DrgnVolvagia: ?
DrgnVolvagia: true
DrgnVolvagia: how would I do that?
onizuka17711: copy and paste
DrgnVolvagia: hmm good idea
DrgnVolvagia: but I like keeping the peace
DrgnVolvagia: not starting a war over ideals
onizuka17711: it's good to get a discussion going
onizuka17711: it's what forums are for
DrgnVolvagia: i guess
onizuka17711: do it, it'll be interesting
onizuka17711: anyway, I have school tomarrow so I've got to go
onizuka17711: bye
onizuka17711 signed off at 10:51:41 PM.

[Ka-Talliya]

What The Hell Was The Point Of That?!?!

[Cidien]

Stopped reading halfways through - but whether evolution is correct or not is pointless. We evolved from monkeys? Maybe. Lets assume so. Now, who/what created the monkeys? The monkeys could have evolved from something, but what created that? The point is we don't know and chances are we will never know unless our spirit (if we have one) lives on and we finally get told why humans are so screwed on earth.

Even if we fade into "nothing", I want to know what the hell a human being is before I die. Also, what is the universe and how did it come to be. It's like some higher being created our universe the way it is just to see what we'd do.

[kakoi_sugoi_yama]

In reply to the thread title:

Neither.

[onizuka17711]

What The Hell Was The Point Of That?!?!

Pretty much, we're trying to settle the old science vs. religion debate. Neither one of us would budge on our beliefs, so we brought it here for discussion.

[odin0425]

ok so now im supper pissed, because i just wrote a fairly wrong replie to this, and the webiste screwed up, so now i have to write it agian.

Let me first start off by saying i am a non-denomanational christian. As for evalution, it is a fact, if you take any college level biology, or anthropology class, you will know that. i mean there is a reason that it can be taught in public schools and creationism cant.

However, saying that all life on earth is a byproduct of luck is just as stupid as saying evalution is false, things happend to perfectly for that, i mean life doesnt just spontainiously appear, and even going back to the big bang, somthing had to set it in motion.

The reason i am a non-denominational chirstian is, i dont think any denomination has got it right, and i dont think one ever will. one more important thing to remember is that the bible contains around 5000 years of history, yet it is only around 2000 pages (depending on translation) the bible is nothing more then the cliffnotes of what really happend, alot of stuff had to have been left out.

The only reason that Evalution is considered a theory is because they would have to examin every animal on earth, not just every speicies, and compare it with its ancestrial remains, to prove it as a law of nature.

[balthier]

Pretty much, we're trying to settle the old science vs. religion debate. Neither one of us would budge on our beliefs, so we brought it here for discussion.

You misunderstand me that's all I'll say cuz if ya can't understand me the first time around well... why bother? Sometimes it's pointless to try and teach something to someone like trying to teach calculus to a 5 year old. If you don't understand that analogy you're hopeless and an insult to onizuka. And quit blowing things out of proportion saying that I said a little red guy in the center of the earth is controlling you LMAO you jus wanna twist my words

[balthier]

As for Evolution or Creator, I believe in both and I have my own ways of putting the pieces together like a puzzle so they both fit. Basically what Odin said.

And I'm not about to tell ya my theories on how they're connected, judging from how 10 people blew up on me and started sending HATE PMs about my previous concepts... well why disturb their fragile little worlds again in which they must defend their beliefs as if my words are poison to their mind.

[074ku]

And I'm not about to tell ya my theories on how they're connected, judging from how 10 people blew up on me and started sending HATE PMs about my previous concepts... well why disturb their fragile little worlds again in which they must defend their beliefs as if my words are poison to their mind.

Don't misunderstand my post on "Humanity's Purpose" I'm genuinley curious of your beliefs.

As for evolution, well organisms evolve, no doubt about it. As for what created the universe, who knows?

[Elcoholic]

He Ryo, who don't you give us your view on the whole thing first so we can respond to that? Tell us your view of the beginning' and why you think so.

[Ryo of Inferno]

He Ryo, who don't you give us your view on the whole thing first so we can respond to that? Tell us your view of the beginning' and why you think so.

Ok sure. I believe that there is some kind of deity that created the universe because when

people are in extreme trouble they turn to some sort of god or gods. If there are laws

such as the law of gravity there must be a lawgiver. Something must have set everything

up. If the big bang happened then maybe this deity or deities caused this to happen.

Personally I'm a monotheist because I believe if there were more it would be too much

like congress. I don't believe in evolution that one kind of animal can turn into another or

tha things improve over time. If you leave something alone for a certain amount of time it

will worsen, not improve. I do however believe in adaptation and that is part of the

evolutionaary theory I believe. Monkeys may have different characteristics depending on

where they live and so on. In short I believe science was a tool for this deity, God as he

set up the laws of science. We as humans just discovered them. Anyway tell me wht you

think about this.

[odin0425]

I do however believe in adaptation and that is part of the

evolutionaary theory I believe.

you should know all about something before you dismiss it!!!!! all evalution is, is addaption for crying out loud, like i said once you know about evalution, not what youve herd, but what it actually is, you cant dispute it.

[Elcoholic]

Ok, lets do this. I've never had this discussion over the net before.

First let me say I'm not good at these discussions in english because so many thoughts rush through my head that when I'm writting down one I forget another.

I'm a hardcore atheist with strong aversion to any organized religion trying to make people live their lives through fear of what happens if they don't follow 'instructions'. I've said it before. I don't like sheep. Just to let you know in advance.

I believe that there is some kind of deity that created the universe because when people are in extreme trouble they turn to some sort of god or gods

This is your reason to believe in god? Well, sorry to say so but when/if I'm in trouble I don't turn to God since i don't know who He is and believe He doesn't exist. I don't see the connection between people praying (to whoever) and creating the universe. But ok, they turn to God but does he help them? Look at this world, that should answer my question.

If there are laws such as the law of gravity there must be a lawgiver.

Why? Why MUST there be a lawgiver? What are laws. We made it a law. We (humanity) found out about gravity (a little late I might add), the apple falling from the tree. We found out that all objects are controlled by gravity only to find out later why. The rotation of the earth. Its not a made law, it existed before we gave it name.

You don't sound very confident in your next text with alot of 'if's and 'maybe's'. Big Bang is a fact. It has been observed in other galaxies and that's what creates a star (our sun) and surrounding planetes. The cause of a big bang is still not proven I think but giving all the credit to an entity of which we know absolutely nothing is far fetched (or he should have told Jezus this story isntead of his 7 days theory). I find it easier to believe if someone said alliens caused it. But ok, why do you think an entity has a part in this or is that just the easy way out? By thinking everything was created by someone we would have never discovered anything and people would still have believed the earth was flat (cause the church said so).

Evolution is another fact. It can not be denied. We came from monkies/ape's (I know there's a difference and don't want trouble with the big guy from planet of the apes ) Unless you have scientific proof of something else creating humans (and God snipping his fingers isn't proof) your making a fool of yourself by holding on to this. The only question remaining is not even a question but something thats extremely hard to prove. The primortial (sp?) ooze. It seems its damn hard to recreate it . So people saying this was made by god (which conflicts with the bible) cannot be proven otherwise yet. Which sucks for us atheists

If something is left alone it will worsen. WTF, are you comparing humans to fruit or something Look at human history, we are constantly evolving. We're getting smarter and more obvious, bigger. 500 years ago people didn't get above 1,60 meters and hardly aged over 40. Evolution is all arround you.

I'm glad you didn't bring the bible into this because so many stories have been proven wrong countless times and its good to see that you think for yourself.

I want to know what makes you believe in an entity noone has ever seen or heard? Is it maybe to explain a thing you can not (yet) explain? If you would never have been taught about God do you think you would have thought about him yourself? What have you personally experienced to make you believe there's someone watching us?

[balthier]

You don't sound very confident in your next text with alot of 'if's and 'maybe's'. Big Bang is a fact. It has been observed in other galaxies and that's what creates a star (our sun) and surrounding planetes. The cause of a big bang is still not proven I think but giving all the credit to an entity of which we know absolutely nothing is far fetched (or he should have told Jezus this story isntead of his 7 days theory). I find it easier to believe if someone said alliens caused it.

I just wanna comment on the 7 days thoery.

As an intense speculator, yet a christian, I find it hard to believe the world was made in 7 days so I explore ideas. Most of the bible is symbolism right? Well if god was creating the world obviously "earth" does not yet exist so what is 7 days? Each planet has it's own "length of a day" right? Jupiter day is like = to 60 on earth. I'm not saying god is from Jupiter lol.

I'm saying IF god creating earth it sure as hell wasn't 7 earth days especially when the damn rock wasn't even rotating when he started. I say maybe he's in "heaven" and i know you atheists think thats cheasy but give your imagination a chance for a moment... the universe is VERY VERY BIG. I doubt scientists have even discovered 1/1000 of it yet. Yet alone traversed it. Heaven? Maybe it's a planet. Maybe a solar system with different planets "peaceful setting of star wars?" I don't know.

But don't you think a day to god would be something like a millenia to a human? Or maybe the word "day" symbolizes he put all his strength out until he had to rest?

In the old old days men worked the fields all day long until they had no energy left whatsoever. Then he rested, that was ONE day.

So maybe god poured his energy into this world 7 times of having to work and rest. Then again I can see how this would easily seem a far fetched idea to try and make sense of it.

Just remember, the bible is very vague, and very symbolic, there is endless possibilities to the translation of meaning.

[balthier]

If something is left alone it will worsen. WTF, are you comparing humans to fruit or something Look at human history, we are constantly evolving. We're getting smarter and more obvious, bigger. 500 years ago people didn't get above 1,60 meters and hardly aged over 40. Evolution is all arround you.

Yes we're getting smarter. However its not necessarily a good thing. Look at all the religous, political and different conflicts going on in the world. Every has their OWN ideas about things and instead of taking the time to try and understand everyone elses ideas they hate them for it. I forgot which philosopher said this but "people hate that which they don't understand"

The wright bros that made the airplane... people would say they're idiots, crazy, out of their mind, comments like that. What drove them to say those things? Some sort of hatred did I'm sure. You guys seen Kino's Journey? The girl that builds the airplane and everyone in the town is extremely frustrated with her because she says she can fly like the birds... well guess what SHE could and the reason for their frustration was because they did not understand her point of view or her ideas.

Getting smarter has allowed much weapons and one day we'll blow our selves up until hell is reality

Because each individual, whether it be an individual nation or person, anyone that has "certain beliefs" will hate any other beliefs because it doesn't make sense to them. And hatred will lead to not communicating, which will lead to confusion and doubt, which will lead to war.