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elcoholic Wrote:Maybe Kerry is just as bad or worse but he hasn't gotten a chance to prove otherwise. For me Bush has shown his incompetence many times. The fact that he ruined relations with the UN and many countries ways heavily for me since I think globilisation is the way to go to solve all the problems of the world. If we work together we can solve anything.

This is a good point, and for a person who supports Kerry, this is a very good reason to vote for him. In fact, it is probably one of the best reasons to support him. You don't like what Bush is doing and you think Kerry should get a chance.

And in regards to you watching 'Farehneit 9/11', I appreciate that you don't take it as the absolute truth at all times and that you use other information to form your opinions.

And as far as Mike Moore seeming like an 'honest man' to you, let's just say he is very good at what he does... :p

elcoholic Wrote:Half those pictures wouldn't have been made if Bush would have minded his own business.



While I'm not going to make excuses for it but this is war. US soldiers did the same in WWII, Vietnam and for that matter in Iraqi prisons. This is what you choose for and knew would happen. These are people who feel worse than when Saddam was president. They were 'freed' by bombs. Instead of seeing armies in their streets fighting for every street the US bombed the country flat which is good for winning a war but its the worst way to make the citizens accept you. If your house is bombed down or someone you know is killed how can you ever say ohh well, its for the good of the country, lets welcome the americans when you never invited them or attacked them in the first place. Most Iraqi's don't have a clue why this war is fought (neither do we really) and only see people invading their country. This war has been fought the wrong way to make everyone embrace democracy in Iraq and thats Bush's fault. He should take responsibility for his actions.



Back up there buddy. Bush isn't making excuses or outragious claims? What about the war and the WMD? If seen him say many times: "Saddam has WMD, we know what he has and where they are blablabla". Lies, all lies.

I'm not clear on the black voters thing in Florida. Did or didn't it happen?

And I'm interested about your lies from Kerry Cidien? Although I must tell you I expect some big ones from you if I'm to believe he's worse than Bush. And please don't come to me with Bush propaganda and his voting record. I don't know alot about Kerry but I'm pretty sure his 'lies' didn't cost any lives.

We bombed their country flat? Reallly? Where?...

BTW those bodies were NOT soldiers. If they were soldiers they would still be pieces of shit, but to do that no non-military personnel is unforgivable.

"lets welcome the americans when you never invited them or attacked them in the first place."

How were they supposed to invite us again? These people could be shot for saying Saddams outfit doesn't match. Again, yes, that has happened.

"This war has been fought the wrong way to make everyone embrace democracy in Iraq and thats Bush's fault. He should take responsibility for his actions."

1) He has.
2) Exactly how could he have done it better?
3) Don't post anymore when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

"What about the war and the WMD? If seen him say many times: "Saddam has WMD, we know what he has and where they are blablabla". Lies, all lies."

1) Saddam DID have WMD's. Or did that village he wiped out all die of natural causes at the same time?
2) He never said he knows where they are. Stop making stuff up to make yourself look smart, you don't.
3) Kerry said the exact same things Bush did when they were going to war. Then, when no WMDs were found he pretended like he was always against the war and Saddam never had WMDs in the first place taking absolutely no responsibility whatsoever. Bush has taken responsibility. As any intelligent person he think Saddam hid/moved them before the war i'm sure, but he's not making excuses about it. Shit, we gave him how many years again to hide/move his weapons without any interference? Thought so.

"I'm not clear on the black voters thing in Florida. Did or didn't it happen?"

If you mean the republicans cheated black voters out of voting Kerry is full of shit. He's a LIAR and he knows it. He only says it because he knows retarded people will believe him.

There's one lie for you.

How about his lies about how soldiers conducted themselves during Vietnam? He even admitted committing war atrocities himself! Another lie... but I guess since there's no PROOF that's propaganda huh?... don't you think a man who proclaims to commit war atrocities such as shooting civilians and burning down villages should be sitting in prison, not running for president?

Kerry claimed to have met with several leaders of other countries and they are all secretely rooting for him to win.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/200410...-3030r.htm

The only countries openly supporting Kerry are North Korea, Puerto Rico and one other, I forget which. What great countries to back him! Another LIE to fool people into voting for him!

Ya know what, i'm going to just copy/paste from another board to make this easier. Takes too long otherwise.

This one is kind of funny. Written from the perspective of Kerry talking. It highlights many of his flipflops.

I am John Kerry.

I was against the first Iraq war, I am against the second Iraq war, but I voted for it. Now I'm against it, but I was for it. I support the UN. I'm against terrorism and against the Iraq war. But I voted for the Iraq war. So, I voted against the first war and supported the second war, wait...

I'm against gay marriage but for gay unions. I support gays but think the San Francisco mayor is wrong. I support gay marriages. No, wait, gay unions.

I'm Catholic. Wait, I'm Jewish. My dad was Jewish. But I was raised Catholic. What am I? I don't want to confuse people.

I am for abortions, but wait, I'm Catholic, and Catholics are pro-life.
But I might consider putting pro-life judges in office, but I'm not sure. I do know I voted for a pro-life judge, but I stated that it was a mistake.

I went to Vietnam. But I was against Vietnam. I testified against fellow US troops in Vietnam, threw my medals away and led others to do the same. But I am a war hero. Against the war.

I stated I threw my medals away and then I threw my ribbons away. I then revealed that I threw my ribbons away but not my medals; then lately I stated that I threw someone else's medals away and never threw anything of mine away.

I believe ribbons and medals aren't the same thing. Medals come with ribbons, so now I believe that ribbons and medals are the same thing besides the fact that ribbons are cloth and medals are metal.

I wrote a book that pictured the US flag upside-down on its cover. But now I fly and campaign in a plane with a large flag right-side up on it. But sometimes, we fly upside-down for fun.

Yasser Arafat is a hero and a statesman. The Israelis shouldn't kill Palestinian terrorists, but they should stop terrorism. Yasser Arafat is a terrorist supporter. I support Mideast peace.

I am for the common man, unlike Bush. I am against the rich. But my family is worth over 500 million dollars, has a jet, seven houses, and many SUVs. I am the common man.

I am against sending jobs overseas. My wife is a Heinz heir, and Heinz has over 72 factories offshore. I am against rewarding companies for exporting jobs as long as it is not Heinz.

I own $1 million in Wal-Mart stock. I believe Wal-Mart is evil by driving small business owners out of town. I am a capitalist, and I own part of Wal-Mart, but I am the poster boy for small corporate America.

I own SUVs when I talk to my followers in Detroit, MI. Teresa owns SUVs; I personally don't really own any SUV's, especially when I'm talking to tree hugging followers. I have a private jet called 'Flying Squirrel' that gets 1/3 mpg, which is great fuel efficiency.

I am against making military service an issue in presidential elections. I defended Clinton the draft dodger and stated that all serve in their own capacity whether they draft dodge or not. Did I mention that I served in Vietnam and am a hero? Are you questioning my patriotism? I served in Vietnam. My opponent didn't. I have three purple hearts! Or was it four? Well, I don't really HAVE them anymore. Not sure what I did with them. I am a hero. I am qualified to run this country since I served in a war. Even though it was just for four months. I'll say anything to be elected president--even if it's just for four months.

I am John Kerry.

I will post more later but I have to get going now.

rarnom Wrote:I find it telling that you would call a behavior done by Kerry a 'Bush'. If he is supposed to be a 'different' candidate than Bush, then why would he behave the same? You have proven my point. If Kerry does blame Bush then he is worse than Bush because he has the nerve to make a promise like that and then if it doesn't pan out then he blames someone else. If Kerry was truly a 'different' type of man, a real stand up guy, then he would take responsibility after making such an outrageous claim. Kerry is making claims that he will be able to do everything better. Even Bush is being honest about the fact that we aren't completely safe. He is being realistic. Kerry is not being realistic. He is making irresponsible promises that he cannot keep. That is why he is so frightening to a lot of us.

it doesn't prove your point. What it says that if Kerry were to blame bush, it's just the same way as Bush blaming Clinton for anything that goes wrong (which has happened many a time by many a people).

kakomu Wrote:it doesn't prove your point. What it says that if Kerry were to blame bush, it's just the same way as Bush blaming Clinton for anything that goes wrong (which has happened many a time by many a people).

You don't see it do you? You even said "it's just the same way as Bush". Kerry is not supposed to be the same as Bush. He is supposed to be DIFFERENT. If Kerry blames Bush, then he is a hypocrite. He says he is DIFFERENT and if he is then he should act different. NOT the same. This isn't about what Bush would do, it is about what KERRY would do.

I want to know how a Kerry supporter can support Kerry and be o.k. with him acting the SAME as Bush if the situation presented itself. That is my question.

The difference is that Bush HAS kept our country safe since 9/11. He has kept us safe all the while he never makes outrageous promises like 'we will be completely safe'. He is being realistic. If we were to be attacked then he would take blame. He'd have to.

The point is that Kerry is making the claim that under his leadership he will keep the nation safe. That implies that he can do this in spite of what already has occured. He cannot make such a claim then blame Bush if something goes wrong and have any credibility.

kakomu Wrote:it doesn't prove your point. What it says that if Kerry were to blame bush, it's just the same way as Bush blaming Clinton for anything that goes wrong (which has happened many a time by many a people).

Need to head to work but before I go I wanna ask when Bush has ever blamed Clinton. Actually I already asked that and all you did was say Bush blamed Clinton again...

rarnom Wrote:The difference is that Bush HAS kept our country safe since 9/11. He has kept us safe all the while he never makes outrageous promises like 'we will be completely safe'. He is being realistic. If we were to be attacked then he would take blame. He'd have to.

The point is that Kerry is making the claim that under his leadership he will keep the nation safe. That implies that he can do this in spite of what already has occured. He cannot make such a claim then blame Bush if something goes wrong and have any credibility.

He can't make that claim and have any credibility period. Kerry is a POS. Most of his supporters know it. They just hate Bush more. Although most of them can't give you a good reason why... but whatever. At least not a better one than I can give not to vote for Kerry...

rarnom Wrote:You don't see it do you? You even said "it's just the same way as Bush". Kerry is not supposed to be the same as Bush. He is supposed to be DIFFERENT. If Kerry blames Bush, then he is a hypocrite. He says he is DIFFERENT and if he is then he should act different. NOT the same. This isn't about what Bush would do, it is about what KERRY would do.

I want to know how a Kerry supporter can support Kerry and be o.k. with him acting the SAME as Bush if the situation presented itself. That is my question.

First of all, I think it's safe to say that an attack hasn't happened under his administration (for all of the obvious reasons). That being said, you're blaming Kerry for something that he hasn't said or hasn't happened. My comments were hypothetical. You're comments are blaming him for something that he hasn't done.

As for being different, there is a difference between being slightly different and diametrically opposite.

Cidien Wrote:He can't make that claim and have any credibility period. Kerry is a POS. Most of his supporters know it. They just hate Bush more. Although most of them can't give you a good reason why... but whatever. At least not a better one than I can give not to vote for Kerry...

I can give you plenty of reasons why:

A) He doesn't work for me. Any and all things I want done to America, he won't do.
B) His Faith in christianity provides unnecessary amounts of pressure against the religion I was decended from (judaism) and the religion I am now (or the lack thereof, Athiesm).
C) His spend-happy persona has plunged us into an economic downward spiral that is an understatement to say would be hard to get out of. No matter how many jobs he created, he destroyed at least 2x as many by manhandling the economy.
D) His tax cuts make destroy programs I would need, including, but not limited to: Money for education, money for local police, money for generally cleanliness and niceities in the community
E) Conversly, the tax cuts help the rich by shifting the weight from richer people to middle class and poorer people
F) He has successfully gutted social security far more than was necessary
G) His war on Iraq has successfully killed over 1000 American troops and many times as many Innocent Iraqi citizens.
I) He has neglected Afghanistan far too much that is tolerable. If he was truly into ending terrorism, we would have seen Bin Laden's head on a pike long ago with a large force in Afghanistan to destroy warlord's power.
J) we should have seen Rumsfeld gone for Abu Graib as well as the lawyer in the white house that sent the memo out that deemed it necessary to torture Iraqi prisoners
K) His insistance to remove Geneva conventions link for most current example

There is more, but I need to work out and thus I'm leaving.

kakomu Wrote:First of all, I think it's safe to say that an attack hasn't happened under his administration (for all of the obvious reasons). That being said, you're blaming Kerry for something that he hasn't said or hasn't happened. My comments were hypothetical. You're comments are blaming him for something that he hasn't done.

As for being different, there is a difference between being slightly different and diametrically opposite.

We have been attacked. Our country has foiled all attacks made against us before they took place.

"C) His spend-happy persona has plunged us into an economic downward spiral that is an understatement to say would be hard to get out of. No matter how many jobs he created, he destroyed at least 2x as many by manhandling the economy."

Our economy is on the rise and no, he has not destroyed more jobs than he has created.

"D) His tax cuts make destroy programs I would need, including, but not limited to: Money for education, money for local police, money for generally cleanliness and niceities in the community"

Bush has given more money for education than any democrat ever has. Don't make stupid claims please. Don't know what the heck you're talking about when you say money for general cleanlisness and niceties in the community. Go volunteer your time and clean up your own community.

"E) Conversly, the tax cuts help the rich by shifting the weight from richer people to middle class and poorer people"

Excuse me, but the rich got according to what they gave. If I was in the top 1% of this country and I got the same ammount of money as mr McDonalds worker back, words couldn't describe how pissed i'd be.

"F) He has successfully gutted social security far more than was necessary"

Really? Please tell me how he did that?

"G) His war on Iraq has successfully killed over 1000 American troops and many times as many Innocent Iraqi citizens."

He's also bringing freedom to over 20 million Iraqis and taken out a murderous dictator. Every one of those American troops signed up for this. They knew what they were getting into.

"I) He has neglected Afghanistan far too much that is tolerable. If he was truly into ending terrorism, we would have seen Bin Laden's head on a pike long ago with a large force in Afghanistan to destroy warlord's power."

Um, wow... and you guys say I just spout out republican propoganda. But I suppose you don't view this as propoganda do you...? Do you even know how many troops are actively fighting terror in Afghanistan? By the way, Afghanistan recently had their first FREE ELECTION. So please don't tell me we aren't doing enough over there. That's bullcrap.

"J) we should have seen Rumsfeld gone for Abu Graib as well as the lawyer in the white house that sent the memo out that deemed it necessary to torture Iraqi prisoners"

No idea what you're talking about. I have a feeling this comment misuses the word torture. I know our troops were given the ok to "torture" Iraqi prisoners for information while staying within the guidelines of the Geneva convention.

"K) His insistance to remove Geneva conventions"

What's your point? He's not saying torture will be allowed or they will be treated like filth. They just won't be treated as POW's but rather as criminals.

kakomu Wrote:First of all, I think it's safe to say that an attack hasn't happened under his administration (for all of the obvious reasons). That being said, you're blaming Kerry for something that he hasn't said or hasn't happened. My comments were hypothetical. You're comments are blaming him for something that he hasn't done.

As for being different, there is a difference between being slightly different and diametrically opposite.

I did say "IF the situation presented itself", I was being hypothetical. I am not blaming him for anything. I was asking if you Kerry supporters thought he would blame Bush if we did get attacked. As for being 'slightly different and diametricly opposite', seeing how much people hate Bush, I would be surprised they would stand for a candidate who is only 'slightly different'.

After reading your posts I still don't know anything about if YOU think he would blame Bush if we were attacked or take responsibility for his own promises.

So what is it?

Do you, as a Kerry supporter think he will make good on this promise? Do you think that if in the scenario that we get attacked that he will take responsibility and accept blame? Or are you saying that you expect him to pull a 'Bush'?

Can you live with the possibility that the candidate you support is making promises he cannot realistically guarantee?

This is NOT about Bush and Bush's promises. I really want to know how a Kerry supporter can reconcile this behavior. So, again, spare me the crap about how Bush is crap. I know you think Bush is crap.

"ABC News reported Tuesday that polling of people who have already voted shows George Bush with the lead over John Kerry by a significant margin, 51% to 47%."

HELL YES!

Cidien Wrote:D) His tax cuts make destroy programs I would need, including, but not limited to: Money for education, money for local police, money for generally cleanliness and niceities in the community"

Bush has given more money for education than any democrat ever has.

Just to add to what Cidien has already said about Bush funding education:

I actually work in education (duh!) and we have TONS of money coming in from the feds. For my classroom alone this is the second year I got $400 to spend on books for my classroom. MY room. $400 for EACH teacher in the WHOLE school (18 classrooms, plus more cash for special ed, all to buy books for the kids to read). That also doesn't include the $170,000 we got as part of a grant to help improve reading and math.

There is PLENTY of money for public education out there, you just have to snatch it up, and that isn't hard to do. There are litereally hundreds of grants out there every year and the teachers just have to write the grant and get the money. There is no shortage of free $$$. Bush has funded education very well, even with the alleged 'freeze' in funding, my school isn't hurting in the slightest.

Don't mess with me on info about elementary ed baby!!!