A question of offensiveness

[Blight]

Alright, I tried to put this out of my head, but every time I think about it, it pisses me off. So, I guess I should just talk this out. Okay, here goes.

Ok, gay people (and anyone with an opinion, but more specifically gay guys) is it offensive for me to think gay (um, male) sex is gross? I don?t think so. I don?t have a problem with gay people, I don?t have a problem with gay people having sex. But the visual picture does gross me out.

Where this stems from is someone at work was talking about how hot this dude kissing scene was and I cringed. (Yes, two dudes only kissing is not something that I like to imagine either). One of the girls got in my face about it, so I told her my feelings. The girl went on to rant about how all kisses were beautiful and I should be more accepting. I said what the fuck ever, cause I never had a problem with it happening, I just didn?t like how It looked. She called me a homophobe for it. I was instantly pissed. Super pissed. I mean, wtf. Am I not allowed to let certain acts of PDA or certain sex acts repel me? Since she opened the gate, I sent hell through.

I started with two ugly people kissing, and how the sight was gross. She said I was comparing ugly people and gay people and I was a homophobe. I ignored her and moved to if someone were to just walk up and perform oral sex on someone in front of her if she would like it. She said that something like wouldn?t happen so it was a bad argument. The bitch was pissing me off. Finally I just asked why I wasn?t allowed to be grossed out by dudes kissing or anything else, and she said it was because I was only grossed out by gay kissing. There I had her, and countered solidly with two shots. A) was I totally love girls kissing, and B) was that I sure as hell don?t like scat (which I had to explain to her was people craping on each other..eww), so does that mean I don?t like the butt hole? She told me I was gross and I told her something I won?t say because it was fucking mean?and gross.

My point to this is: I want to know if she was just being a bitch, or if some people think she had a legitimate argument. I think, that as a person who has respect for the personal freedoms of myself and others, that other people can do things that would make me throw up, and I am allowed to throw up because of them. Let me hear some answers.

[Amethyst]

Why didn't you ask her if she liked watching 2 girls kissing? Your argument about you liking to watch 2 girls kissing doesn't apply since that is the opposite sex of you... and is probably the same thing she likes about 2 guys kissing, the opposite sex from her....

Although I have to tell you, she probably doesn't mind the 2 girls kissing as much as you mind the 2 guys kissing... it's because women are brought up to love, nurture and show affection whether it be other women or men, whereas men are brought up to not show any type of affection towards other men whatsoever.

Just like some people are uncomfortable with any type of public affection whereas some people don't mind or are slightly turned on by it... same with nudity... a lot of it depends on how you were raised... as to what level is comfortable for you.

[Batz Kage]

I think you have a damn right to be grossed out by whatever the Hell you want to be. If you're not hating the person because of their sexual preffernce, then it's not in any way morally wrong to express your distaste for whatever is at hand.

It sounds to me, that not only was she being a bitch, but a dumb one at that. Now, I shouldn't say this because when someone is speaking, you know that their pitches & tones express more than their choice of words.

I think you had her with the rtwo ugly people kissing. Sure there are a lot of ugly people in the world, just like their are a lot of gay people. And you can dislike either one kissing all you like. The problem lies in that the two gay guys kissing were not ugly.

I personally have no problem with homosexuals, or whatever it is they choose to do. Well, I have this one thing about this one chick. She is getting a "life partner" because she said she couldn't find a guy that she liked. That sounds like a dumbass cop out. I believe that if you're gay you should preffer one over the other, she preffers guys, but can't find one -_-

Err, well there is one thing about most the gay guys I know that I dislike, they all want to be the center of attention -_-

[gubi-gubi]

You can feel how ever you want to feel, nobody can stop that. But it sounds like you do have a problem with gay people. Not in the most obvious way of hating all gay people but still have some issues about it. I am gay so I can only say how it makes me feel, but it's like saying 'oh I don't have a problem with you but everything you do makes me sick'. It's like the people an politicians who say oh you're free to be gay in the privacy of your own home but not infont of straight people, why should they have to see that? How can people have equality when we should have to hide ourselves from people who might get offended?

[Andromeda18_]

You can feel how ever you want to feel, nobody can stop that. But it sounds like you do have a problem with gay people. Not in the most obvious way of hating all gay people but still have some issues about it. I am gay so I can only say how it makes me feel, but it's like saying 'oh I don't have a problem with you but everything you do makes me sick'. It's like the people an politicians who say oh you're free to be gay in the privacy of your own home but not infont of straight people, why should they have to see that? How can people have equality when we should have to hide ourselves from people who might get offended?

I understand what you're trying to say and perhaps Blight does have some deep inner problem with gay people but perhaps he just doesn't feel confortable with it.
I can understand that, I think it's a matter of being used to it. We grow up seeing heterosexuals kiss and have sex (on movies, real life (the kissing part!!!), etc) so it's something we're used to but it's not so often that we see gay people kissing (I've only seen it on tv) so we might feel unconfortable. Let me try to explain this better. I suppose you're thinking that if I don't feel confortable about it then it's because I don't truly think it's normal right? But that's not it. It's just that society does differentiate between homosexuals and heterosexuals. People who have no problem whatsoever with it do that, even homosexuals do that. It doesn't mean it's wrong, it doesn't mean one is better than the other, it means it's viewed differently. And of course, being gay still carries a negative connotation (unfortunately) which is why gays don't display their affection in public in the same way heteros do. Because there is this notion of difference and because it's not something that we're used to seeing everyday, we might feel a bit awkward about it. In my case if I see people kissing on the street I don't even look twice but if a couple of friends of mine kiss in front of me I'll just blush from ear to ear and feel like getting the hell out of there, it doesn't really matter if they're gay or not. Why? Because I'm not used to it, my friends don't usually kiss in front of me, it makes me feel very out of place.
This sort of situation can also be observed in old people. Old people, at least the ones around here, don't like to see couples kissing on the street, they think it's disgusting. This is due to the fact that 'back in the days' this sort of thing didn't happen, they feel shocked by it, but that doesn't mean they think it's wrong for a man and a woman to be together.
But now here's the thing. Do you think couples will stop kissing in public just so they won't offend these old people? Right! They don't and they shouldn't. Why? Because it's their right! It's not against the law, it's not doing anybody any harm so why should they stop? Same goes for gay people! They don't have to hide just because some people might feel unconfortable. If people don't like it then they just have to look away.

I do have to say that while society needs to change there are some gay people who need to change too. My best friend is gay and he's been dating a guy for years. Every single year I've invited him to my birthday dinner but this year was the first time he decided to come. Not because we was busy in the past but because he knew my friends and I all knew about it and he wasn't okay with it, because he has a problem accepting himself. He's more open now but in the beginning it was really hard to get so much as a word out of him and according to my friend it's because I knew he was gay. Apparently he had no problem talking to people who knew nothing about it. In this case he was the one who had a problem with it, not me. Of course, I'm relentless so I never gave up, mostly for my friend's sake.

Anyway, I think it's okay if Blight doesn't like it, if he doesn't feel confortable with it, so long as he respects it. The rest will come in time.


Just as a side note I'd like to say that I'm a bit suspicious of people like the girl Blight mentioned, people who are so fundamentalist they won't even try to put themselves in other people's shoes. It sounds to me like they're trying to convince themselves.

[gubi-gubi]

I understand what you're trying to say and perhaps Blight does have some deep inner problem with gay people but perhaps he just doesn't feel confortable with it.

I see what you are saying and I agree to an extent. That's why I say his problems with it are not as simple as hating gay people or anything like that. The issue I have is the way he's refered to it. I too am not a fan of people kissing in public gay or not say on a train sitting next to me or something, but that's not the issue. The issue was talking about a kissing scene, on TV maybe? It's not the same thing. The whole situation has only arrived from the way he reacted to the kiss. If I see something like a PDA in public I am not disgusted or wouldn't make it known or visible that I thought so like Blight did. He must of said or done something for the other person to know how he felt. It shouldn't bring such visual disgust. You're talking about a kiss. To talk and act so 'grossed' out about it is a bit too far.

[Andromeda18_]

I see what you are saying and I agree to an extent. That's why I say his problems with it are not as simple as hating gay people or anything like that. The issue I have is the way he's refered to it. I too am not a fan of people kissing in public gay or not say on a train sitting next to me or something, but that's not the issue. The issue was talking about a kissing scene, on TV maybe? It's not the same thing. The whole situation has only arrived from the way he reacted to the kiss. If I see something like a PDA in public I am not disgusted or wouldn't make it known or visible that I thought so like Blight did. He must of said or done something for the other person to know how he felt. It shouldn't bring such visual disgust. You're talking about a kiss. To talk and act so 'grossed' out about it is a bit too far.

Well, Blight does seem to be a bit blunt but it seems to me like that girl overreacted. He probably wouldn't have spoken his mind (initially, he only cringed) if she herself hadn't reacted the way she did. And I have to say that the whole "all kisses are beautiful" thing was just lame, but that's my opinion. She said he should be more accepting but the way I see it even if he felt true disgust it doesn't mean he's not accepting. I can't exactly say I understand how he feels because I feel absolutely nothing when I see two women or two men kissing (on tv) but I believe it's possible to accept and respect homosexuality and not like the idea of two men/women having sex. I think Blight accepts gays, but when he sees two men kissing he unconsciously thinks of himself doing that and doesn't like the idea. Do you understand what I mean? Maybe you don't feel weird when you think of yourself kissing a woman but I'm certain there's at least one gay man out there that does.
Don't think I'm trying to excuse Blight in any way, the truth is I simply don't think this is a situation that requires an excuse.

[Blight]

Well, Blight does seem to be a bit blunt but it seems to me like that girl overreacted.

Well, yeah, I'm blunt. I noticed in the past no matter what three ring circus of words I illustrate, it was always a little more effective when I just said how I felt with words as sharp as a sack of hammers. And it's not like it makes me want to stab my eyes out if I see two dudes kissing (or worse on the internet), I just think that guys aren't very pretty to begin with. Deviling into my psyche is probably not a good idea anyway, I have lots of perverse thoughts and feelings, which may or may not gross you out.

Anyway, I really, really want to give a proper explanation of my thoughts, feelings, and stance, but don't have the time. Sorry, but there is like time for sleeping, eating (barely), and Work (I'm steal sleep's time right now), so Friday after noon is when I will give a much deeper look into this issue, into my own heart, and into the things I believe true. A preview of my main points is: A) Why are some people wholly defined by their sexuality, and if they aren't, why would this be offensive? B) If gay people can't and shouldn't have to control their feelings, why are the feelings I have about just the sex issue (to be honest, I do need to get over the kissing thing. Even I think that I'm lame and a weenie because of it). C) You need to remember it is the act, which is personal and absolutely no one but myself should give a damn about my opinion on, is what I don't really like. And it is basically what it looks like, not what is involved (Trying not to imagine right now lol) that is what is eww to me.

Further explanations later. I need some serious sleep now.

[marka]

Not to confuse matters more, but I'm a little confused. It seems the whole argument stemmed from a scene in a movie ... correct? I'm not sure how you get from that to "If gay people can't and shouldn't have to control their feelings, why are the feelings I have about just the sex issue." I've known and know some gays, and with one exception, you'd never in a million years know these guys were gay just by meeting them. Talk about controlling their feelings ... !

I don't think your reaction to explicit gay shows of affection are unusual, tho. Other, hetero guy friends of mine have a similar aversion to seeing guys kiss in a film. It's like squirm time. Myself, I think it's a threat to their vision of masculinity. They think it's a threat to their stomach's fortitude ... I don't argue with them about it because there's no point to it. It's not political or moral in nature, and doesn't mean they're nasty to gays; it's a visceral reaction to something they see on a screen. If they saw two guys kissing on a street corner, they'd just walk away.

I don't know why most chicks don't seem to have this problem. I don't personally know any woman who gets grossed out by chicks kissing, except (with some women) when it's solely as a way to "porn it" for male viewers. I think Amethyst has something about the way women are brought up ... But I also think many women simply do not feel threatened by lesbians because, well, we live in a world where it's mainly men who commit violence against women, not other women, including lesbians ... I mean, in terms of threat, we got bigger things to think about. Maybe that need to, say, be on super alert in situations that men don't think too much about (and having men often "rake you over" when you just walk into a room or whatever, which can feel awful) builds a high tolerance for the fluff of women kissing ... or men kissing. It's just no big deal. Give me two chicks (or two guys) kissing at a bar any day over two guys sitting there leering at me. Yuck.

[gubi-gubi]

Not to confuse matters more, but I'm a little confused. It seems the whole argument stemmed from a scene in a movie ... correct? I'm not sure how you get from that to "If gay people can't and shouldn't have to control their feelings, why are the feelings I have about just the sex issue."

That's why I think there is more going on than just not liking the sight of kissing.

She said he should be more accepting but the way I see it even if he felt true disgust it doesn't mean he's not accepting.

I think, that as a person who has respect for the personal freedoms of myself and others, that other people can do things that would make me throw up, and I am allowed to throw up because of them. Let me hear some answers.

This statement makes me think it's more tolerance than being 'accepting' as people have said. I respect freedoms also. I respect the freedom of racists to be allowed to air their views in public for example. I accept that a white supremacist has every right to feel, say and do what ever they feel like if it is law abiding. Now at the same time if I had to sit and listen to a speech from them, it would make me cringe/feel sick. I have no problem sharing the same room as a racist but if they started saying racist things I wouldn't like it. That is the difference between tolerance and acceptance.

[Andromeda18_]

I see what you mean and you could be right, I'm not going to deny it, but I still think this is nothing more than just a very personal feeling of "Eww, I wouldn't like to do that!". It's like Marka said, many hetero men see it as a threat to their masculinity. I do have some trouble understanding why because I'm certain that kissing a woman wouldn't do my femininity any harm. There are far worse things. :p

Another thing, you shouldn't underrate tolerance. Tolerance means: a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry. If everyone was tolerant of homosexuals then homosexuals wouldn't have the problems they have now, it wouldn't matter if people truly accepted them or not. You can't get a person to completely like/agree with you or what you do, getting that person's respect is the most you can aim for.

[Homeless Joe]

Another thing, you shouldn't underrate tolerance. Tolerance means: a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry. If everyone was tolerant of homosexuals then homosexuals wouldn't have the problems they have now, it wouldn't matter if people truly accepted them or not. You can't get a person to completely like/agree with you or what you do, getting that person's respect is the most you can aim for.

i totally agree. personally i see nothing wrong with gay people, it's their lives i feel they should be free to live them however they want and it's not anyone's place to pass judgement. though i still would rather not see it. but i also would rather not watch other people kissing either lol. the difference in reactions between two men kissing and a man and a women are all based on culture. most people have been raised to believe that it should be a man and a women, and we have seen that so much, but we haven't seen two men kissing very often so it's natural to feel a little akward about it, whether you think it's ok or not.

[JunkieJoe]

I didnt read the entire thread but i will comment....

Just a declaimer, I have nothing against gays, I dont bash gays, but I do make gay jokes (the usual "thats gay" when someone does something) blah blah blah

anyhow, males, by nature, have the alpha male programmed into them, so they are very territorial, some people call this threat to their masculinity, but its totally differnet, as a matter of fact, I am secure in my sexuality and I can laugh and joke and "act gay" for a good laugh when need be...

and I do have a problem seeing 2 guys make out or having sex... the tought of it creeps me out.... but before people start calling me homophobes I will say this.... Indian food gives me same eeeeek creepy feeling that makes me shudder... so take that is it may.

[gubi-gubi]

Right i'll try make my point one last time, reword it differently then give up.

Right im not saying anyone is explicitly homophobic for feeling disgusted at a gay kiss. What I am saying is the feelings brought up when you see the kiss are a product of homophobia in a sense. All this 'oh im a masculine guy' is bullshit. Mainly because it's not because 'you are such a guy' that you are feeling this. Many many societies before now have had NO problem with same sex relationships. Infact before the spread of Christianity most societies were totally open with it and saw a lot of it publically. Are samurai or Roman soldiers not masculine? The reason people now feel sick when seeing a gay kiss is a product of being brought up in societies where it is a taboo. Lots of kids when younger who come across anything gay have to say 'eeew' infront of friends for fear of being called gay. This group mentality towards it has stuck with people. Rational thought tells most people there is nothing wrong with being gay yet these deep feelings remain. People have compared seeing it to ugly people kissing, food they can't stand. Why? Why can't it be compared to normal looking people you just don't find attractive? People see kisses like that all the time on tv and don't feel sick about it. Reactions to things of disgust are learned. You don't automatically feel sick because of indian food like JJ said. Something has been experienced in your life to make you feel that way. Society as a whole has elements of homophobia that people brought up in are affected by. I am not sickened by the sight of a man/woman or woman/woman kissing because society has taught me it's normal. Society has taught people to be sickened by a gay kiss.

I'm done!

[Andromeda18_]

On Homosexuality

Shikibu had a view:"Regarding homosexuality, young samurais might experience an error that will cause life-long shame. You are in danger if you lack proper understanding. Few people are in a position to talk and advise about the subject. Samurais have to bear the following in mind: a good 'wife' never meets a second 'husband'. The object of your love is one for life. Otherwise, you are the same as a prostitute. Too shameful for a samurai.
"It is truly said by Saikako Ihara (a writer) that 'A samurai without a companion is like a girl without a fiance.' People will ridicule such samurai.
"After five years or so of intimacy, you will discover the ultimate conscience of your supposed companion; and then you can ask him to elevate the relationship.
"Inconstant samurais will not take root and will probably desert you in a short time. When you choose a guardian, you must prudently verify the root of his nature. Remember, you must be willing to throw away your lives for each other. If another should court you, shake him of with ' You stand in my way.' If he insists and asks, 'Who is the impediment?' answer him with ' I will never tell you as long as I live.' And if he persists, cut him down.
"As said before, you had better look into the motive of the younger companion. Five years' whole-hearted devotion to him will win him over. But at all events, never have two strings to your bow. At the same time, be assiduous in the practice of military arts while thus engaged. Thus your conduct will be consistent with Bushido."

Taken from BUSHIDO: THE WAY OF THE SAMURAI, the first English translation of the Hagakure.

Homosexuality was indeed as common once as heterosexuality is today. In fact, there were times when sex was viewed as the natural thing that it is and people engaged in its practice freely. In Europe, it was the Catholic Church that destroyed that freedom and understanding of sex and turned it into a taboo. The Church was so obsessed with stopping people from having sex (I know, how did they expect people to procreate?!), that in the 12th century marriage was formally defined as a sacrament, just so they could dictate people couldn't have sex outside the marriage and that people could only have sex to procreate (by doing so they were limiting the practice of sex). The Church did many other things (I couldn't believe my ears when I learned of them) to keep sex under control and while some didn't work quite as well as they expected, sex did end up becoming a taboo. We might think we're very open minded about sex nowadays but this is nothing compared to the take older societies had on sex.

I agree with you that this whole masculinity thing is a cultural matter and like you I too think it's bullshit. That's exactly why I said 'many hetero men see it as a threat to their masculinity' and then rolled my eyes. I don't think this notion of masculinity is homophobic in nature because it adresses much more than just homosexuality, but it does end up being homophobic as far as homosexuality is concerned. I still don't think someone like Blight can be called homophobic (as he was) because of this. If the notion of masculinity, with all of it's ups and downs, was programmed into him since a young age, it's already an achievement that unlike many (and there are many indeed) he was able to rise above that upbringing and form an opinion that goes against it. The girl he mentioned called him a homophobic, but to be homophobic is to be prejudiced against homosexual people and if, as he says, he isn't prejudiced against homosexuals then he isn't homophobic and shouldn't be called a homophobic. Yes he might feel disgust when he sees two men kissing, and yes it might be rooted in the notion of masculinity he was brought up with which in its turn is in a way homophobic, but it doesn't make him a homophobic.
But now I ask you, do you think it's homophobic if a man doesn't feel disgust when he sees two men kissing but feels awkward?

Having said all that, can somebody please tell me what's wrong with ugly people kissing?
And by the way Gubi-gubi, I know loads of people that say they don't like a certain food and have never even tried it. My aunt says she doesn't like rabbit but has never in her life eaten rabbit. When I was younger I used to say I didn't like this very typical portuguese dish of chicken and rice with chicken blood (I know, it sounds awful) but then I tasted it and it's actually pretty good. Actually, the first time I tasted it it wasn't really chicken and rice with chicken blood it was lamprey and rice with lamprey blood, but one thing led to the other. Anyway, what I mean to say is that people can dislike something based on no experience whatsoever. We humans can be irrational like that.
Oh, and I must also add that there are many people who are homophobic towards lesbiand as well, not just towards gays. The weirdest thing is that most of them are men and men that would like to have sex with two women and watch them getting it on with each other. Go figure!