'Over there'

[Ossie]

'You are absolutely right Ossie'
Well you know, it just isnt in my nature to be wrong .

'a real life story of how people prefered freedom over safety.'
Im always well pleased to hear stuff like this .

I dont even think freedom needs to come at a cost to security. I believe a truer and less destructive safety can be achieved as long as you are willing to open your mind and free yourself from prejudices. Safety that dosnt rely on the ill-considered surpression of others.

[rav96]

hahaha LMAO

ROFL!!!

[Cidien]

While this would be funny if I were a democrat, its bullcrap. Example. France, Russia and Germany didn't help us because they had too much of an oil interest with Saddam they were afraid of losing. Hmm, wasn't America being told it was oil greedy before we went in there and the other three countries were sticking up for "what was right" according to democrats? Retards.

As for Kerry, if you vote for him you're a fool, no nice way to say it. The mans called a flip-flopper for a reason. Bastard supports the war when it makes him look good and condemns it when he thinks it will make Bush look bad. Sad thing is, most people have been too stupid to realize this. At least Bush believes in something and is trying to make the world a safer place for us. Kerry believes in... um... higher taxes? Ya, that works...

Those that want to vote for Kerry ask yourself this, do you know ANYTHING about him? Probably not. Know what that means? You're an idiot for telling people you want to vote for a man you know nothing about. Out of about a hundred democrats i've asked only about 5-6 could give me a reason they are voting for Kerry other than "He's not Bush".

Who do you think is going to be tougher on terrorists? Bush or Kerry? Hm.... God help us if Kerry wins. He damn sure won't.

BTW, something funny i've noticed, i've been asking kerry supporters if they liked Ronald Reagan. Almost all of them do. Fools don't understand if they hate Bush now they would have hated Reagan years ago. Course they love Reagan now, they'd be fools to say otherwise...

Ah, another BTW, Kerry was on the wrong side of history during the cold war. If he were president his and his nuclear freeznik buddies would still be fighting with the Soviet Union today.

[Zagatto]

I'm amazed at how shallow your views of politics are.

The sole support that I can find for Bush in your argument is that he attacked Iraq and stuck to his guns for attacking Iraq. You are right that Kerry doesn't support the initial attack over there but he does support our troops and would love to see them come home safely and also to see the US finish the job it has undertaken. Now that we've had one president make a stupid decision it would be equally stupid to pull out with out trying to make sure some semblance of stability is in place.

My biggest complaint about the Bushes and Reagan is their lack of foresight with regards to the economy and foreign policy. Reagan benefitted greatly from a global economic boom and strong programs put in place by Carter. Do you remember the term "Voodoo Economics"? It was used by most economists to describe Reagan's approach to the US economy.

You complain about higher taxes if Kerry wins but how do you feel about the lowering quality of schools, roads, hospitals and other public services that have been happening since this "War on Terrorism" began? There have been HUGE tax cuts under Bush's administration and all that money that you "save" is taken out of the programs that make the US such a great country.

Bush seems determined to keep the American public's attention focused on foreign soil and the potential of more terrorist attacks. He has to if he wants to remain in power. The country is going into debt at an incredible rate and the quality of life is deteriorating. And I'm still not entirely sure why Iraq was picked as a country to attack even though there are a number of other countries that have done more to harm American interests or even abused the rights of their own population.

Stop looking for terrorist attacks everywhere. The fact that so many people are in a state of panic means that the terrorists have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. Every time we attack one of them it turns them in to a martyr for the rest of the world.

I should stop here... I'm just starting to go on and on. I hate the fact that so many people agree that the best way to deal with terrorism is to attack other countries and show how strong our army is. If anything, this approach to dealing with the problem is only going to escalate things rather than make the world a safer place for everyone.

[Cidien]

"You are right that Kerry doesn't support the initial attack over there but he does support our troops and would love to see them come home safely and also to see the US finish the job it has undertaken."

Wrong. Kerry did support the war and even said Saddam has weapons of mass destruction and leaving him alone would be a mistake. Not word for word, he actually made it sound much more grave. Kerry then said that he would pull out immediately from Iraq. When his polls dropped he realized the american people wanted to finish what was started and changed his mind. Surprise, surprise. He only condemns the war now and pretends he never supported going to war because it makes Bush look bad.

"I hate the fact that so many people agree that the best way to deal with terrorism is to attack other countries and show how strong our army is. If anything, this approach to dealing with the problem is only going to escalate things rather than make the world a safer place for everyone."

Take out the terrorist and terrorist training camps and put into place a good education system which teaches kids morals and how to think for themselves and the number of terrorists should decrease drastically. Terrorism will always be a problem in our lifetime. What we need to do is educate the kids that may one day be terrorists so the problem goes away before it starts. We cant change current terrorists minds. They've been told America is evil since they were born. You can only kill them or wait for them to die, whether of a medical condition or from a suicide bomb killing many more people...

If he don't "liberate" other countries like Iraq there will no way to try to stop the kids from learning America is evil when they are young, we won't be able to do a damn thing but kill them when they grow up.

As for why Iraq was picked first... we have a ton of proof Saddam was an awful guy. Can any of you really say America is not a safer place with Saddam gone? He DID have WMD's, so please don't give me that "but we didn't find any" crap. If he didn't have any how did he gas his own people? If he didn't have any why did he kick out weapons inspectors several times and at least once shoot at them as a convoy left...

North Korea has taken advantage of the Iraq war now. Not sure what we're going to do with a country that openly states it will nuke us if we do anything to them... but i'm sure when we're able to retaliate we will. We just don't have the manpower to do anything with them at the moment, and a draft is out of the question unless North Korea does something really stupid.

If you think it was such a bad thing to invade iraq talk to a soldier who's been there. You should get an eye opener. They should and do know better than you do. Talk to one if there are any in your area. We just had quite a few come back home and most of them want to go back already. All of them support Bush.

*Edit: Just read a quote by Kerry that states `You don't make up or find reasons to go to war after the fact.''. I find this pretty funny. So what's his excuse? He wasn't against the war until we were already there.

[multipak]

I?ve been around for a long time, buying anime from Junkie Joe now and then, but never joined any discussion. However, after reading Cidien?s Republican propaganda, I just couldn?t help but reply.

Cidien,
Where do you live? Let me guess. Some place middle of nowhere like Montana.
What news do you watch? Let me guess. Fox news
Have you ever watched any international news channel such as BBC news and Deutch Welle? Let me Guess. Never. Your mind is probably as narrow as Calista Flockhart?s waist size. Then again, who wouldn?t be brainwashed after watching Fox News channel for more than 24 hrs, when even CNN is biased for Bush?

Only thing you?ve recited here is the Republican propaganda Book of Campaign that Karl Rove and Dick Cheney tries to feed us. I can?t believe anyone smart enough to go to college would fall for that.

Let me quote some of Cidien?s words.

?As for Kerry, if you vote for him you're a fool, no nice way to say it. The mans called a flip-flopper for a reason. Bastard supports the war when it makes him look good and condemns it when he thinks it will make Bush look bad. Sad thing is, most people have been too stupid to realize this. At least Bush believes in something and is trying to make the world a safer place for us. Kerry believes in... um... higher taxes? Ya, that works...?

The Republican?s favorite theme is flip-flopping. Have you forgotten Bush?s flip-flopping? During debate against Gore in 1999, Bush said that nation building was not US?s responsibilities. Now he says it is. Don?t give me this bullshit about Bush being steadfast. He is a politician.

If you believe Bush went to Iraq for world peace, you are an idiot. Period.

And to the topic of tax cut, when did Kerry ever say he would raise the tax? He said he would eliminate tax cut for anyone with income over $200,000/yr that Bush gave, and Kerry would give extra tax cuts for those who make below that amount. Besides, Republican tax cuts favor the rich so much that I don?t know how anyone can support them. For instance, take a look at Bush?s tax cut on capital gains and dividends.

After finishing my tax return last March, I found out that I saved a grand total of 50 cents, thanks to this tax cuts on capital gains and dividends. How much did you save, Cidien? It?s safe to say that most people will not save a dime. Unless you own millions of dollars worth of stocks and bonds, this tax cut is useless. It is designed to reward super riches. Republicans claimed that this tax cut would increase the stock market purchase, thereby benefiting the high class. In turn, the high class would pass their gains to middle class by hiring more people and purchasing more merchandise.

Basically, they are talking about the trickle down effect. That is, feed the rich, rich gets richer, and eventually rich will share the benefit with poor. The problem with this scenario is that in reality, rich does not share their wealth with poor. As a result of this trickle down scheme, rich gets richer, and poor gets poorer. On the other hand, John Kerry advocates trickle up effect. That is, give tax cuts to poor and middle class. In turn, poor will have more money to spend, and they will spend money on merchandise that rich owns, thereby giving money to rich. In this trickle up scenario, both rich and poor gets richer.

In both scenarios, the rich gets richer. However, the rich is opposed to the trickle up effect. Why? Because their rate of gaining the stinking super rich would be faster in trickle down scenario, even if that means poor will suffer. If you think all those Bush?s tax cuts are so wonderful, get a life. It doesn?t benefit everyday folks. His tax cut on income tax probably saved me a couple hundred bucks last year while my CEO probably saved almost $1 million dollars. It is sickening. We can shove that tax cuts up the elephant? ass.

[Zagatto]

multipak, thank you for questioning the source of Cidien's information.
Within this past week solid evidence was released stating that Saddam hadn't produced any weapons of mass destruction since 1992. The information disseminated to the public was outright lies and misinformation regarding WMDs. The reason so many countries didn't join with the US in the invasion of Iraq was due to the lack of ANY evidence of WMDs being produced there.

Check out the Australian election happening this weekend. One of the key points for the public is that many people feel that the current president is too much of a lap dog for US policy. The current president there has been under heavy scrutiny for siding with the US instead of the UN.

I'm not going to argue that Kerry supported Bush at the time to go to war against Iraq. That was a mistake at the time and Kerry acknowledges it as a mistake now. I feel it's a sign of strength for a person to be able to recognize when a mistake has been made and take steps to correct that. People that hold to an ideal rabidly tend to lose the ability to negotiate or rationalize when presented with new information. This is the type of life style that many terrorists live through and they hold to their beliefs with the passion of their religion.

That brings me to one of my biggest beefs of Bush. He seems to be doing his best to integrate church and state again. One of the founding tenants of the US is the seperation of church and state. Kerry has taken a number of stances that are based on rational thought rather than religious doctrine, noteably abortion and gay marriage. It's this respect for an individuals rights that Kerry has that makes me support him along with the fact that he actually has a plan for the budget that appears it will work.

[Cidien]

I don't feel like responding to everything atm as i'm sick and just don't have the energy to reread through and respond to everything. No, I don't just sit and watch fox news. While fox news is still biased it is the most fair news channel out there. CNN being biased towards Bush is a laugh. You obviously don't watch CNN very much. I watch all the news channels frequently.

"One of the founding tenants of the US is the seperation of church and state."

Don't like when democrats write/say that. Our founding fathers had a MUCH larger integration of church and state than we do now and I doubt very highly they would approve how just how seperate we've made them. Our country was founded upon Christian ideals and i'm sure they'd be appalled that we're trying to do such silly things as remove "In God we trust" from our money and such. (No, i'm not really a Christian so this is not Christian bias)

You wanna see the democrats propagana machine? Visit the boards at Hannity.com. They post every negative republican story they can find. Almost all of which are later pointed out to be outright lies and proven so with evidence. Example: A story posted multiple times was a democrat news agency writing a story about thousands of republicans booing when Bush offered Clinton a speedy recovery. Ya, that lasted until a republican found a tape of the speech and there was NO booing whatsoever. Or you can just visit any democrats news web sites, you'll find a lot of crap. I guarantee you won't find very many if any republican sites that post news like that without the facts to back it up first. I'm rambling now, I need to go take some tylenol lol.

Anyways, I think Bush will win by a lot. Most people saying they will vote for Kerry are idiots that can't even spend a few minutes learning something about the guy. If they can't spend a few minutes to learn about him they aren't likely to spend an hour to vote for the guy.

Oh another thing pissing me off. People are calling Cheney a liar because he said he had never met Edwards before. Oh no! Cheney forgot he met Edwards, what a liar! Lets declare Edwards the winner because Cheney forgot he met Edwards! Funny how nobody in the media pointed out when Kerry lied about calling Bush a lair...

[multipak]

It bugs me that Bush supporters have become mindless zombies like Cidien these days. It wasn?t like that in 2000 election. They will believe anything and everything that come out of Bush?s mouth. For instance,

Bush: Going to Iraq was a right decision because Sadam has WMD.
CIA: Sadam has no WMD.

Bush: Ok, let me find a new excuse. Going to Iraq was a right decision because Sadam has ties with 9/11 and Al Qaeda.
CIA: There are no ties.

Bush: Ok, I?ll find another excuse. Going to Iraq was a right decision because world is a better place without Sadam.
Everybody: World is even more of a better place without dictators in North Korea, Libya, Iran, and Saudi Arabia
Bush: So what? Going to Iraq was a right decision because world is a better place without Sadam.

CIA: North Korea is testing their nukes.
Bush: So what? Going to Iraq was a right decision because world is a better place without Sadam.

CIA: Iran is starting their nuke program.
Bush: So what? Going to Iraq was a right decision because world is a better place without Sadam.

John Kerry: Bin Laden is still loose.
Bush: So what? Going to Iraq was a right decision because world is a better place without Sadam.

Cidien: I am stupid. I can?t think for myself. I will just repeat what Bush said. Going to Iraq was a right decision because world is a better place without Sadam.


After changing excuses for the war, Bush sure is sticking to his gun. Bush supporters buy this crap. Instead of relying on critical analysis on facts available, all they do is repeat Republican campaign slogans like a trained parrot. Listen to this numbskull that is Cidien. ?flip-flop, flop-flop? My gosh, it?s a broken record. And it?s without any substance. Bush tried the catch praise during the debate and it backfired on him big time. I am interested in seeing if Bush will try to recycle ?flip-flip? and ?mixed message? angle in tonight?s debate.

Cidien, you are a moron for calling Fox news the most fair. Only Republicans watch Fox news. Tell me why independents get their news from CBS, CNN, NBC, and ABC. You?ll know even CNN is biased if you ever watch any of Canadian news channels. Try non US-based news and learn other ?truth?. I recommend BBC news. You can?t complain it?s biased, because it is from Bush?s #1 ally Great Britain. It will give you different insights that you?ll never find from Fox or CNN.

No, Cidien, I don?t want to see democratic propaganda machine. I can make decisions on my own just fine.

Hand me over some of that Tylenol you are taking. After debate tonight,
I?ll get a headache trying to make sense of Bush?s rambling. Cheney is a slime ball. Did you see how he was insisting that Iraqi casualty should be included in coalition casualty stats? How about the Iraqis we killed? Why don?t we include them in the stats?

Cidien, I am still waiting for your answers on Bush?s tax cuts that favor the riches. Oh, wait. You got no answers. Republican propaganda machine never taught you how to answer that one.

[Cidien]

"Bush: Ok, let me find a new excuse. Going to Iraq was a right decision because Sadam has ties with 9/11 and Al Qaeda.
CIA: There are no ties."

Food just got here so i'll make this short. Even the biased 9/11 commission published in their report that Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda. And you call me a mindless zombie? I at least look for some facts before I post what I write. You just post what you think/hear from the biased media.

[Cidien]

Go to Hannity.com and sign up for the message boards. Follow this link:

http://www.hannity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=102839

Watch Kerry debate himself. If you really think Kerry is a better option watch this, there is no republican spin. You can't spin what someone's saying in a video broadcast very well. Like I said, there's a reason Kerry is called a flip-flopper. Someone didn't just make up the nickname because they thought it sounded good.

[multipak]

Cidien,
Little boy, don?t give me this bullshit about biased 9/11 commission. How did Republican-controlled House AND Senate ever allow the biased commission against them? Tell us why they are biased.

9/11 commission published in their report that Saddam had ties to Al Qaeda? Don?t bullshit again. Give us the quote. I already know it?s not going to support your claim.

You still haven?t answered two of my questions.

1. Tell me why independents get their news from CBS, CNN, NBC, and ABC.
2. I am still waiting for your answers on Bush?s tax cuts that favor the riches.

Don?t look in Republican campaign manuals book. You?re not going to find answers there.
Stop listing the bullshit Fox-Republican propaganda sites. Hannity and Bill O'Reilly are two biggest bullshitters even for Fox.

[Cidien]

1) Fox news agency is the #1 agency for a reason.

/sigh, just missed my ebay auction cuz I was responding to this idiot.

2) Looking for the quote now, gimme a min.

Well I can't find it anymore, a link to it is on the Hannity boards (a link to the report not someone saying so, I read what the report said). Since it isn't going to change your mind anyways I don't really feel like spending the time to find it again. If you REALLY want to find out for yourself if i'm lying read the report, it's in there.

[Cidien]

Oh, about the tax cuts, what exactly do you think is going to happen if we tax the crap outta the rich and give breaks to the more poor people in america? The will NOT change their lifestyle to fit your needs. You know that nice comfy job you probably have? Gone. Why? Because the rich owner of the company you work for will not change his lifestyle just so he can keep you employed. Laughing right now? If Kerry somehow wins just keep laughing. The people losing jobs because of it wont. Growing up in a poor family turned rich from hard work and now a poor college student, I know about these kind of things pretty well. Unless you own a business, your insight into this matter is useless, so don't try to say it's crap... I know you will want to.

As for the economy itself, it's been shown many times how tax cuts have boosted the economy. Reaganomics helped out country extremely well. Who gets the credit for this? Do nothing and enjoy the benefits Bill Clinton. Well, that's not fair, he raised taxes for by the time he left office the economy was in a recession. Of course who's fault is this? Why it's Bushes! Why not! It's his fault he inherited a recession! Oh, while were at it, it's Bushes fault the economy dropped even more after 9/11 right? Of course! Now the economy is on the rise finally after Bushes tax programs are finally starting to take hold. If Kerry wins the election who's the one to congratulate for it? Kerry of course! If Bush wins, well, i'm sure there are other reasons the economy is on the rise. Give me four years, i'll think of something. Maybe some latent plans for Clinton that are kicking in or something.

By the way, if you're one of those people that's been saying we've been spending into oblivion, you're democrat friends have been saying that practically since the parties have been established. We're still fine right? Yup, thought so. Course, there's always the future to bitch about, we just might be in trouble one day...

Again, i'm sick today and rambling more than I usually do, so if anything really doesn't make sense point it out and i'll try to answer it better.

[multipak]

Oh, about the tax cuts, what exactly do you think is going to happen if we tax the crap outta the rich and give breaks to the more poor people in america?

Little boy,
I'll tell you what's going to happen. The rich will try their best to find the tax loophole. Other than that, the behavior of rich will not change. They will do their best to increase their wealth. On the other hand, our public programs will be better funded. Roads will be better repaired. Teachers will not get laid off. The college tuition will be cheaper. Social security program will be better funded. When you retire, you?ll get probably get about $300/month with the current level of Social Security funding. Does that make you feel secure?

Just wait till you finish your college and get your first job at some corporation. First time they announce their layoff plan, you?ll be wetting your pants and wish you had voted for Kerry. It is sickening how Republicans constantly tried to favor corporations, their executives, and filthy riches.

Let me tell you a story how things work in real life. At the end of last year, my company?s high-ups gave themselves big Christmas bonuses. Executive level got half a millions each. Managerial position got 100 thousands. When all the workers came back from Christmas vacation, the managers announced the layoffs of two workers who made $75,000 and $60,000 each. They were good workers. If the layoffs were absolutely necessary, high-ups could have easily saved a tiny fraction of their big bonuses and use it to pay for 2 unfortunate guys. But hell, no. They were given $5000 severance pay and let go. The rich does not share their wealth with the poor. This is a good example of how Republican concept of trickle down economy fails.

According to your claim about economy, those two laid off guys would?ve been kept if Bush gave bigger tax cuts to the corporations and its executives. You are so gullible.

Enjoy your good comfy life in school while you can.