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Evolution or Creator - Batz Kage - 02-01-2005
My religion to the title's question states:
God created man as an animal capable of evolving.
As for Bible recollection; if you read certain bibles of certain religions, they say dinosaurs where still around when they were written. Learned that from a religious woman that taught my 8th grade science class
To get technical, for all we know, the great flood was no flood at all, but the spilting of the earth from that big one mound that I'm to lazy to look up how to spell, as for my beliefs due to my religion, there is nothing on the topic that I know of, i'll have to hit the books & see about, it but yeah, kinda got off topic, now i'll go back & actually read all that has been said.
Evolution or Creator - Ryo of Inferno - 02-01-2005
elcoholic Wrote:Ok, lets do this. I've never had this discussion over the net before.
First let me say I'm not good at these discussions in english because so many thoughts rush through my head that when I'm writting down one I forget another.
I'm a hardcore atheist with strong aversion to any organized religion trying to make people live their lives through fear of what happens if they don't follow 'instructions'. I've said it before. I don't like sheep. Just to let you know in advance.
This is your reason to believe in god? Well, sorry to say so but when/if I'm in trouble I don't turn to God since i don't know who He is and believe He doesn't exist. I don't see the connection between people praying (to whoever) and creating the universe. But ok, they turn to God but does he help them? Look at this world, that should answer my question.
Why? Why MUST there be a lawgiver? What are laws. We made it a law. We (humanity) found out about gravity (a little late I might add), the apple falling from the tree. We found out that all objects are controlled by gravity only to find out later why. The rotation of the earth. Its not a made law, it existed before we gave it name.
You don't sound very confident in your next text with alot of 'if's and 'maybe's'. Big Bang is a fact. It has been observed in other galaxies and that's what creates a star (our sun) and surrounding planetes. The cause of a big bang is still not proven I think but giving all the credit to an entity of which we know absolutely nothing is far fetched (or he should have told Jezus this story isntead of his 7 days theory). I find it easier to believe if someone said alliens caused it. But ok, why do you think an entity has a part in this or is that just the easy way out? By thinking everything was created by someone we would have never discovered anything and people would still have believed the earth was flat (cause the church said so).
Evolution is another fact. It can not be denied. We came from monkies/ape's (I know there's a difference and don't want trouble with the big guy from planet of the apes) Unless you have scientific proof of something else creating humans (and God snipping his fingers isn't proof) your making a fool of yourself by holding on to this. The only question remaining is not even a question but something thats extremely hard to prove. The primortial (sp?) ooze. It seems its damn hard to recreate it
If something is left alone it will worsen. WTF, are you comparing humans to fruit or something
I'm glad you didn't bring the bible into this because so many stories have been proven wrong countless times and its good to see that you think for yourself.
I want to know what makes you believe in an entity noone has ever seen or heard? Is it maybe to explain a thing you can not (yet) explain? If you would never have been taught about God do you think you would have thought about him yourself? What have you personally experienced to make you believe there's someone watching us?
Now I didn't say if this deity helped them I said there must be one. Also how did we make
it a law. Did we say, when this happens you will do this? No we just named the laws. The
Law of Gravity. I am not going to bring the bible into this because I don't read it anyway.
As for why I believe it, it is because it has the least patches in the story. Also I believe
that with so many people looking for fulfilment in their lives whether it be materialistic or
spiritual must point to some kind of entity. This especcially taking into account the many
different religions out there. I'm not comparing Humanity to anything at this point I am
just stating a fact. I mean everything does age. Also humans are getting smarter, but at
the same time are becoming worse off than before. As we acquire knowledge we try to
use it to harm others. Also yes I have experienced many things I have to be thankful for.
I don't know what would have happened if I was never taught about God but with
everything that happened I would have to say yes. Let me summarize by saying that I
think God is probably the ultimate scientist. Anyway pick that apart if you will. This is
suddenly getting interesting.
Evolution or Creator - 8 Drunken Stylz - 02-01-2005
Cidien Wrote:We evolved from monkeys? Maybe. Lets assume so.
That's a pretty common misconception used by anti-evolutionists to decry the theory. All it really serves to do is muddy the waters. The best way to classify what humans evolved from is 'ape-men'. At some point, the evolutionary paths split into human and great apes, there after human-ancestors went under massive and, evolutionarily speaking, super fast changes to become modern man. Monkeys branched off long before that. The term 'the missing link' refers to the as of yet undiscovered common ancestor of the earliest human and great ape splits.
Just trying to clear up a coupla points, boss.
Evolution or Creator - 8 Drunken Stylz - 02-01-2005
elcoholic Wrote:Look at human history, we are constantly evolving. We're getting smarter and more obvious, bigger. 500 years ago people didn't get above 1,60 meters and hardly aged over 40. Evolution is all arround you.
Again with the clarity. I've had a look around, the current theory is that Humans haven't evolved since at least 250,000 years ago. Most evolutionary scientists agree that if you were to travel back in time, steal a new born baby and bring it back to the present and raise it in an average American family it would do equally well in school, live to 75 and stand 5'11" tall. The factors that influence all that sort of thing are purely environmental/nutritional/connected to advances in medical science and sanitation.
Evolution or Creator - onizuka17711 - 02-01-2005
elcoholic Wrote:Ok, lets do this. I've never had this discussion over the net before.Yes! This is what I'm talking about! And bathier, wars have been going on before your religion even existed, because humans just want power. Which brings me to another point: If you believe that your religion is right, how come it has only existed for 2000 years? Also, notice how it only reflects the ideas shown at that time. It even states that the earth is flat. Wouldn't you think that if god created the earth, he would at least know it's shape? And that the universe was heliocentric? I could go all day on this, but you get the point.
First let me say I'm not good at these discussions in english because so many thoughts rush through my head that when I'm writting down one I forget another.
I'm a hardcore atheist with strong aversion to any organized religion trying to make people live their lives through fear of what happens if they don't follow 'instructions'. I've said it before. I don't like sheep. Just to let you know in advance.
This is your reason to believe in god? Well, sorry to say so but when/if I'm in trouble I don't turn to God since i don't know who He is and believe He doesn't exist. I don't see the connection between people praying (to whoever) and creating the universe. But ok, they turn to God but does he help them? Look at this world, that should answer my question.
Why? Why MUST there be a lawgiver? What are laws. We made it a law. We (humanity) found out about gravity (a little late I might add), the apple falling from the tree. We found out that all objects are controlled by gravity only to find out later why. The rotation of the earth. Its not a made law, it existed before we gave it name.
You don't sound very confident in your next text with alot of 'if's and 'maybe's'. Big Bang is a fact. It has been observed in other galaxies and that's what creates a star (our sun) and surrounding planetes. The cause of a big bang is still not proven I think but giving all the credit to an entity of which we know absolutely nothing is far fetched (or he should have told Jezus this story isntead of his 7 days theory). I find it easier to believe if someone said alliens caused it. But ok, why do you think an entity has a part in this or is that just the easy way out? By thinking everything was created by someone we would have never discovered anything and people would still have believed the earth was flat (cause the church said so).
Evolution is another fact. It can not be denied. We came from monkies/ape's (I know there's a difference and don't want trouble with the big guy from planet of the apes
If something is left alone it will worsen. WTF, are you comparing humans to fruit or something
I'm glad you didn't bring the bible into this because so many stories have been proven wrong countless times and its good to see that you think for yourself.
I want to know what makes you believe in an entity noone has ever seen or heard? Is it maybe to explain a thing you can not (yet) explain? If you would never have been taught about God do you think you would have thought about him yourself? What have you personally experienced to make you believe there's someone watching us?
Evolution or Creator - Ryo of Inferno - 02-01-2005
onizuka17711 Wrote:Yes! This is what I'm talking about! And bathier, wars have been going on before your religion even existed, because humans just want power. Which brings me to another point: If you believe that your religion is right, how come it has only existed for 2000 years? Also, notice how it only reflects the ideas shown at that time. It even states that the earth is flat. Wouldn't you think that if god created the earth, he would at least know it's shape? And that the universe was heliocentric? I could go all day on this, but you get the point.
Actually there is supposedly a reason for this. Even if the Bible is "the word of God" there
were probably some changes, mistranslations made in order to fit the times and beliefs of
the time. What I would like to see is the original supposedly unchanged version in hebraic.
If I could see that and compare that with the poular version we have today, I wonder
what I would find. I heard in one of the passages it mentions double stars but most
translators disbelieved it and changed it to a single star as they werent until recently
discovered. Anyway, its probably why I don't read my Bible. Oh by the way Onizuka
where did you get you facts? If they are accurate could you look up how long Judaism has
existed? Christianity was originally a branch of Judaism and eventually broke off awhile
after Jesus died. That would be an interesting fact to know after all.
Evolution or Creator - odin0425 - 02-01-2005
8 Drunken Stylz Wrote:Again with the clarity. I've had a look around, the current theory is that Humans haven't evolved since at least 250,000 years ago.
actually it was 40,000 years ago when we went from homo erectis to AMH (anitomicaly modern human)
Evolution or Creator - Cyrus - 02-01-2005
the real question is did humans evolve from another species or did they evolve into more superior humans. Things evolve everyday but they do not species evolve.
Im willing to say that man was once a creature that acted like an ape and had more fur because of enviroment or whatever but the whole deal is that man did evolve from primitive man.
God created man (primitive and much different then today) and now we have what we have today and perhaps one day we will evolve into more superior then right now.
Evolution or Creator - onizuka17711 - 02-02-2005
Ryo of Inferno Wrote:Actually there is supposedly a reason for this. Even if the Bible is "the word of God" thereI learned my facts in global class. I am not 100% sure on Judaism; I have been sick quite a bit and I believe I missed the day we studied that. However, I am pretty sure it originated around roughly 2000 or so B.C.E. when the whole Moses ordeal occurred. My facts this time come from a previous year in global class.
were probably some changes, mistranslations made in order to fit the times and beliefs of
the time. What I would like to see is the original supposedly unchanged version in hebraic.
If I could see that and compare that with the poular version we have today, I wonder
what I would find. I heard in one of the passages it mentions double stars but most
translators disbelieved it and changed it to a single star as they werent until recently
discovered. Anyway, its probably why I don't read my Bible. Oh by the way Onizuka
where did you get you facts? If they are accurate could you look up how long Judaism has
existed? Christianity was originally a branch of Judaism and eventually broke off awhile
after Jesus died. That would be an interesting fact to know after all.
Evolution or Creator - balthier - 02-02-2005
onizuka17711 Wrote:Yes! This is what I'm talking about! And bathier, wars have been going on before your religion even existed, because humans just want power. Which brings me to another point: If you believe that your religion is right, how come it has only existed for 2000 years? Also, notice how it only reflects the ideas shown at that time. It even states that the earth is flat. Wouldn't you think that if god created the earth, he would at least know it's shape? And that the universe was heliocentric? I could go all day on this, but you get the point.
Uh christianity states the earth is flat? sorry never knew that. My religion has been around for 15,000 years. It started with Judaism and split into christianity and catholicism. If i was born 15,000 years ago I'd be a jew. And I judge things for myself. If something seems unrealistic in my religion I search for reasonable answers until I can fill in the gaps. Like Noah's flood, 7 days to create the earth, and all the unbelievable stories, including Moses splitting the jordan river was it?? There's actual events that took place which could have been it, the bible just blows it out of proportion and calls them acts of god, when it was a massive earthquake causing water to rush away at the exact same time moses got to the river.
It's all on the history or discovery channel, but you go on saying I believe what I'm told, well that's bullshit I believe what's reasonable and is 100% clear. It's just not clear to you so you think I'm a blind believer.
And Ryo, you are absolutely right about mistranslations. The bible was compiled by what hundreds of people? Each person views things differently and writes things down differently. Not to mention head priests had the power to add or remove things which is why the bible has LOTS of missing pieces. A prophet from four thousand years ago would call a meteor shower "raining fire" he wouldn't know that it's falling rocks on fire from entering the earths atmosphere. And Moses splitting the sea was caused by a massive earthquake where all the water poured too ect. They call it a miracle of god because they had no way to scientifically explain it. It was nature itself (now maybe god was behind it or not) I believe so because someone had to set things in motion.
How do you think the universe got there? I'm sure you athiests believe we all evolved from bacteria or whatever but how did the UNIVERSE get there? Just try and comprehend for a second how long the universe has been there, how it got there, what set things in motion? Has the universe eternally existed in the past? How can past stretch for eternity? And if not how did the universe begin?
Evolution or Creator - Elcoholic - 02-02-2005
balthier Wrote:Uh christianity states the earth is flat? sorry never knew that. My religion has been around for 15,000 years. It started with Judaism and split into christianity and catholicism.
I'm going to go into this thread further later on if/when I have the time. For now could you tell us some more about this? What did those people believe in 15000 years ago? Did their religion also revolve arround heaven and hell? If so, where did they get the concepts from?
Evolution or Creator - Cyrus - 02-02-2005
Where in the Bible does it state that the earth is fat i remember it stating that the earth is round.
Thanks
Evolution or Creator - Ryo of Inferno - 02-02-2005
onizuka17711 Wrote:I learned my facts in global class. I am not 100% sure on Judaism; I have been sick quite a bit and I believe I missed the day we studied that. However, I am pretty sure it originated around roughly 2000 or so B.C.E. when the whole Moses ordeal occurred. My facts this time come from a previous year in global class.
One more thing Onizuka what Bible did it state the Earth was flat? It might only be in that
translation. If you do find it please look at that version and look it up in a differring
version and see if it is there. I think in Jr High I heard about this small sect of Christians
that still believe the Earth is flat. Also Baltier don't forget about the monks getting drunk
on their wine. That could add to the mistramslation Lol.
Evolution or Creator - Elcoholic - 02-02-2005
Cyrus Wrote:Where in the Bible does it state that the earth is fat i remember it stating that the earth is round.
Thanks
That fact was discovered arround the time Mr. Columbus found out about that little island you guys live on over there. Most people believed he would fall of the edge of the earth because at that time they still believed the earth was flat. I'm not sure the bible states it was flat but I'm very sure it didn't say it was round. The church imprissoned you back in those days for saying the earth was round so I assume its in some religious transcript.
Evolution or Creator - balthier - 02-02-2005
elcoholic Wrote:That fact was discovered arround the time Mr. Columbus found out about that little island you guys live on over there. Most people believed he would fall of the edge of the earth because at that time they still believed the earth was flat. I'm not sure the bible states it was flat but I'm very sure it didn't say it was round. The church imprissoned you back in those days for saying the earth was round so I assume its in some religious transcript.
When is everyone gonna learn not to judge a religion by what idiotic hypocrites (who call themselves christians) do? I'm sure high priests and all them were influenced by the king to bend religion to enforce law. What they did in those days (like enforcing religion and church and worship) was clearly against the bible.
About the 15,000 years ago religion.. well read the bible it states how old everyone is and all the generations. How do you think Judaism was created? It was several prophets over the course of time that compiled it.
They got the concepts from being blessed when doing certain things (good) and being punished when doing certain things (evil). After that I'm sure they thought well something must be behind this. " Because every time I do something that hurts another, something bad happens in return to myself. If I always do something that helps others good things happen in return "
And proof of a greater being is so inevitable. The universe has eternally existed, has limitless ends and you are conceited enough to think there is no greater being out there then humans?
Oh, about god punishing people and helping people concept...
Idiotic christians will blame god when someone they love dies. When some hypocritic christian gets a disease they will START to search for god. But before that they could careless and focus on making money or something selfish like an athiest. Those people are mockeries of christianity.
God gave us the choice for everything. So if he was to intervene we would have no choice. If someone is dying it's because we didn't listen to his warnings. In the bible there's stories about how god punishes people. I think people back then thought because god warned them, that god would bring punishment if they didn't when infact it's just human nature's chain reaction (but god made it that way).