If Shaq or Kobe were the leaders for different teams then they wouldn't be in the championships at all ? Shaq was in Orlando for several years with Penny Hardaway (when he was still good) and even then they didn't win the finals. Shaq needs Kobe and Kobe needs Shaq. They also have a pretty good bench if i do say myself but I don't like the Lakers "cocky shit" attitude. Seriously, I think the man is Iverson, I've been following him since Georgetown.
Heres the review:
Game 2: 4th quater, with Shaq on lakers up by 4, shaq got 5 fouls, with shaq out lakers down by 6, shaq on again they go to over time and win with shaq, and Kobe was playing the whole time
Game 3 (Tonight, Right now): with shaq on lakers down by 6, shaq got 4 fouls they take him out for almos an entire quater and lakers down by 20, Kobe was on the whole game.
Game 3 Detroit 88- lakers 68 WIPE OUT!!!
TEAM WALLACE 2 - FANTASTIC FOUR 1
Lets Go DETROIT!!!!
I used to play ball all day every day in my teens (yes, we love the game over here to). And all I can say is nobody will ever be as great a player as MJ was. MJ could play on every position except center and still be the best player on the court. He singlehandedly (sp?) won the first 3 NBA championships. The proof is after he left for the first time and the team was still complete (except MJ and H.Grant I believe who went to Orlando) the Bulls sucked big time and the first complete season he came back they immediatly won the championship again, 3 times. He was out for 1,5 years and came back better than ever. Nobody can do that again. Kobe is good, but nowhere close to what MJ was.
Makes me feel all warm inside thinking back to those days.
Facts?? You didn't state any facts. 1st thing you might want to look at is what my original statement was. I said I liked Kobe more than I ever liked Jordan. Nowhere in there did I imply that Kobe is better than Jordan. So let's get that clear first.
Now, since you are bent on comparing Kobe to Jordan, let me help set some things straight here. Alot of the stuff that I've been saying was reiterated the last few days by all the analysts with all this Kobe vs. MJ talk.
1st, let's compare Kobe at 25 to MJ at 25. Compare him to what you knew about Jordan at that age and disregard anything else he did after that point. Do NOT compare him to the legend of Jordan, but Jordan himself.
Granted, at age 25, Jordan did not have Shaq to play with. That made it tougher on him in terms of winning championships, since he was basically a one man show putting up like 37 points a game. But not having Shaq on his team also made him 'the man' on his team. He instantly became the leader of the the Bulls. Kobe has had to take a backseat to Shaq all these years. If MJ had to have played with someone as established and dominant as Shaq, he would've had to take a backseat as well. He could not have been the leader he was, because Shaq was already established as the leader. That is why Kobe is not the leader that Jordan was.
At age 25, Jordan averaged 37 points a game while Kobe averaged like 25 this season I believe. Jordan had nobody on his team and had to put up all those shots. Kobe is forced to share the ball with Shaq as well as Malone and Payton. If you look at Jordan at 25, he was basically a jacked up version of TMac or AI. He was getting scoring titles, but wasn't going anywhere.
Kobe has 3 rings already, and Jordan had 0 at that point. Kobe has a better jumper than Jordan did at that point as well as better ball-handling skills. As good as Kobe's D is, Jordan still had better D than him. In terms of skills, Kobe is better than Jordan at every facet of the game with the exception of defense.
People say Kobe is selfish. But they never say Tmac, AI, or Jordan were selfish. Could they do what Kobe has done in the situation he has been put in? Could they sacrifice what he has? Could they share the spotlight and even take a backseat, when they KNOW that there are good enough to be a #1 option on almost any other team? We don't know do we? And you also don't know what Kobe could have done on his own. We can't say what kind of leader Kobe would have been if he had come into the same situation that MJ and some of these other superstars were placed in.
Everyone always talks about how Shaq has helped Kobe win 3 championships, but noone ever mentions how that has hurt Kobe's personal numbers and accolades. If you're gonna compare the number of MVP's, scoring titles, and everything else, also be sure to compare the number of championships. The same things that help Kobe win championships (playing with Shaq), also affect him negatively in almost every other way. If you want to look at the facts, look at ALL the facts, and not just the ones that make Jordan or whoever loook good and make Kobe seem like a selfish ballhog whose riding Shaq's coattails.
Well, you did sort of start the comparisson. And your right, I am comparing the legend of MJ to Kobe now. What I'm trying to say is I think Kobe isn't the player that can carry the team like MJ did of which you gave excelent examples (actually, I think there is no player who can carry a team like he did). I must say that I'm not as up to date with players stats and stuff as I used to be (CNN text used to be my morning paper). I don't even know for sure what position Kobe plays (I assume small forward) now so I'm not fit to discuss this with a fan like you but I'll try. If we talked 8 years ago I could give you all NBA players and the important stats of the starting players (good times) and we could have had a real chat.
I was just surprised to see MJ compared to him or anybody for that matter. He is still a god in my eyes. The stuff he did for the sport. He was the symbol for the sport at the time when bball was my life.
Quote:Granted, at age 25, Jordan did not have Shaq to play with. That made it tougher on him in terms of winning championships, since he was basically a one man show putting up like 37 points a game. But not having Shaq on his team also made him 'the man' on his team. He instantly became the leader of the the Bulls. Kobe has had to take a backseat to Shaq all these years. If MJ had to have played with someone as established and dominant as Shaq, he would've had to take a backseat as well. He could not have been the leader he was, because Shaq was already established as the leader. That is why Kobe is not the leader that Jordan was.
Agreed. But he wasn't just made "the man", he earned it. But if Jordan had Shaq on his team I am not sure he would have taken a back seat. Remember Penny Hardaway and Shaq at Orlando? Penny scored atleast a steady 20 points per game and he and MJ are not in the same league so imagine how much MJ would have scored. Probably less than he did on his own but still alot. Also would have had much more assists. I think they would have made an excelent team. They both need to be double teamed which would have been impossible. Also if they were on the same team from the beginning I think they would have no fingers without rings left. They would be that unbeatable. But this is just what if's.
You can't compare age's since Kobe didn't go to college. MJ won the championship at least once and was also MVP at least once in college if I remeber correct.
Quote:At age 25, Jordan averaged 37 points a game while Kobe averaged like 25 this season I believe. Jordan had nobody on his team and had to put up all those shots. Kobe is forced to share the ball with Shaq as well as Malone and Payton. If you look at Jordan at 25, he was basically a jacked up version of TMac or AI. He was getting scoring titles, but wasn't going anywhere.
Correct, Jordan didn't have anybody on his team. Don't see why this is negative to his person. Jusy shows he DID do it all alone. Once again the biggest differece is that I think nobody can carry a team like he did. Plus MJ mostly played point guard which is (together with center) the position to play if you need to carry a team. I don't think Kobe plays either of these so he will always need a good player to bring him the ball. Later on the Bulls got Pippen, that european guy and Horace Grant and he still scored 30+ easily.
Quote:Kobe has 3 rings already, and Jordan had 0 at that point. Kobe has a better jumper than Jordan did at that point as well as better ball-handling skills. As good as Kobe's D is, Jordan still had better D than him. In terms of skills, Kobe is better than Jordan at every facet of the game with the exception of defense.
Kobe has 3 rings now because his team is better and MJ had to do it all alone which at that point was to much to ask even from him.
I'll give you Kobe's jumper but I want the ballhandling. What MJ did with the ball while in the air is unbelievable. His timing was perfect in the air and on the ground. And he was the trash talk master which is a skill on itself. And later on in his career (second threepeat) MJ's jumper was an excelent weapon. He also started to hit way more 3 pointers. He was getting older and started to look for new ways to score, which he found.
You want to hear MJ was selfish? He was selfish, in the game atleast. No doubt about it. He knew he was the best and could do anything he wanted when he wanted. Good example was when he came back from his baseball adventure. Those first games the Bulls played with him were purely to get him back into shape. He could throw the ball to the ring from anywhere he wanted, when he wanted. They accepted that if he would miss alot (which he did) they would lose but it would be worth it to get him back in shape. No team would do that today with anyone. Is Phil Jackson still coaching LA? If he is he wouldn't do it to get Kobe back in shape. It would be fun if they would ask him who's better.
The rest is just what if's and we will know when he gets his own team. Its real hard to compare these two. Different times, different teams, different players.
Don't get me wrong, Kobe plays awesome ball. Might even be the best player arround now and at the end of his career (if he doesn't get jailed) he will have more titles than MJ. But MJ is still a living legend and the title of best player ever has been taken by him and I don't think anybody will take it from him anytime soon.
But you're doing the one thign you can't do . . . compare him to Jordan after you already know what he accomplished. Noone can measure up to that, and certainly not a 25 year old. If you just look at them at the same age, then it's a much more even comparison.
You have to compare the ages and not the # of years in the league. Since Kobe didn't go to college, the 1st few years might as well have been like college to him, since it took him longer to learn the pro game. Jordan started right away, while Kobe had to come off the bench for his 1st 2 years.
Kobe is naturally a 2. Alot of times they'll slide him to 3 when they bring Kareem rush and Fisher into the game, since he's the only one of them that has enough size to play the 3. Kobe could play 1 if he had to, since like I said earlier about how his ballhandling is better than Jordan's was at that age, but they usually choose not to have him do it due to the fact they don't want to tire him out by having him bring the ball up the floor. If you've been watching the games, you'll see that Kobe has covered everyone from Lindsey Hunter to Corliss Williamson , and even Big Ben on a few occasions. That just shows his versatility, but he is naturally a 2. Him and Jordan are virtually identical in size and height, so they play the same position.
people have way too much time on thier hands. who cares, its basketball, just watch the game and enjoy it
Hey Vicious you said that I didn't state any facts, but a fact is something that has happened and can be proven, well MJ almost got the Wizards to the playoff snd the lakers did lose like 85% of the games when shaq got injured, and since that happened it makes it a fact, and I did provide a lot of facts (things that really happened).
You said to compare MJ to KB when they were both 25 because it was the fair thing to do but KB entered the NBA when he was 18 so is a lot of years before MJ got in, and since KB has been playing since he was 4 and MJ got cut out in 10th grade, then theres is no perfect way to compare, just in general.
You said KB has shaq and that affects his numbers and I understand that but since MJ had nobody he accomplished the 6 championships by himself, and what I'm saying is that KB has Shaq so is easier for him to win champ because after all the MVP was Shaq. And MJ did it again alone with the wizards. We (at least me) are not comparing by numbers, but heres an example, in terms of comparing, if Kobe was trade for tmac, the lakers will have the same numbers and orlando too, they both great players but they cant carry a team by them self and that has been proven with orlando being last and the lakers losing without Shaq. But Shaq can be compare with MJ because chicago lost when MJ retired and the lakers lost when shaq was out.
Just to clear up there are facts there...
i guess the title should be changed from pistons vs lakers to: kobe and shaq vs jordan, peace people
Quote:Originally posted by Seijuro Hiko
You said KB has shaq and that affects his numbers and I understand that but since MJ had nobody he accomplished the 6 championships by himself, and what I'm saying is that KB has Shaq so is easier for him to win champ because after all the MVP was Shaq. And MJ did it again alone with the wizards. We (at least me) are not comparing by numbers, but heres an example, in terms of comparing, if Kobe was trade for tmac, the lakers will have the same numbers and orlando too, they both great players but they cant carry a team by them self and that has been proven with orlando being last and the lakers losing without Shaq. But Shaq can be compare with MJ because chicago lost when MJ retired and the lakers lost when shaq was out.
I already explained why you have to compare age and not years in the league, so I'm not gonna repeat myself if you're too stubborn to comprehend why.
You want to talk about MJ with the Wizards and the facts? I live in DC. I read the papers everyday. The players did not like playing with him and did not feel comfortable with him on the court. They were happy to see him retire. Those are the facts.
And I hate it when people say MJ did it alone. He did not do it alone!!!! Let's see if we could rebuild the Chicago Bulls with players from today. For Jordan, we obviously substitute in Kobe.
Rodman was the leading rebounder virtually every season, played hard defense, and never really wanted the bll on offense. Best person to compare him to nowadays would be Ben Wallace. Wallace D is better, but he doesn't get the same number of rebounds Rodman did. So I say it's an even trade off.
Pippen, IMO is the hardest person to find a substitute for. He was an all star virtually every season, and was on he dream team as well. I think it is safe to say that he was one of the top 5 players in the league for a good 5 year stretch in there. He could handle the ball, create his own shot, did not mind being the 2nd option, and could defend any position on the court. There is noone in the league like him. Most equal person to fill in for him would be TMac I'd say. He has better offense than Pippen, but his defense is nowhere near as good.
BJ Armstrong wasn't a star, but played hard every game. I'd say Fisher is an equal substitution for him.
For their centers, you could stick in virtually anybody. Mehmet Okur, Jason Collins, Lorenzen Wright, Elden Cambell . . . it doesn't really matter.
The bench is also very hard to find someone of equal value for nowadays. He had 3 point specialist like Hodges, Paxson, and Kerr that could spread the floor and make teams pay for doubling on MJ. There is noone I can think of offhand that is as good at making 3's as those guys in the league at this moment.
So you have a lineup of Fisher, Kobe, TMac, Ben Wallace, and Jason Collins. You think they win a championship??? So don't ever tell me that Jordan did it by himself and had noone. He had a damn good team, and those are the facts.
I still say kobe has more backup than MJ because shaq counts for like 3 players, and you can't compare age because the more years you have in NBA the better you are as a player so you just have to compare the years that they have in the league, if you have a guy that enters at 17 and now has 30, and whe that guy has 30 and another guy enters at 32 , the guy that has 30 will be a lot better that the guy that has 32 because he has what some people call EXPERIENCE!!! so if you don't see that then to bad, its like duncan, he started playing basketball when he was 16, didnt know anything about it, and he still won 2 straight MVP and almost won this years by like 5 votes.
You're mentioning diferent years of the team, you say Rodman, kerr, amstrong, paxson, etc but those guys played different years. BJ didnt play with kerr and paxson was there for 2 champs, Rodman play in the late champs, and the lakers have the same tem for like 6 years with the exception off minor changes and this year 4 hall of famers.
And finally the players from the wizards didnt like playing with him so that means that its harder to communicate and the team work is hard to find but MJ still almost got them to the playoff but he got hurt, and they were the worst team in the league the year before and they wasted the #1 pick with that suckass center brown.
You're probably right about me getting different versions of the Bulls mixed up in there. But even you have to admit, that he had players around him. They all just got overshadowed because of Jordan. If you think I miscasted some of those people for Pippen or whoever, feel free to give me your version of who the lineup would be today. But whatever you come up with, it will be a very good team that would be instant title contenders.
The point I was trying to get across when mentioning his years with the Wizards was, that it tarnishes this image that everyone portrays him as being a 'great leader'. Even Jordan can be a bad leader or teammate that noone wants to follow when put into the wrong situation.
And honestly, do you think making the playoffs in the east recently is an sign of greatness? As bad as the Celtics were this year, they made the playoffs. I don't exactly think it is an accomplishment to squeak into the playoffs in the eastern conference.
I know that making the playoff in the east is not too dificult these days but it is when you have the same team that was last in the year before, maybe you're right MJ may have been a bad leader in the wizards but that just mean that it was much harder to play a good game. Anyway we could be here for weeks discusing this matter, so i think I had enough we could say the same thing over and over because everybody defends the person who they admire to the end of the world otherwise they're not true fans, so it's been fun battling it out but it has to end sometime. To stay on topic I say GO Detroit!!!
Quote:Originally posted by Seijuro Hiko
Anyway we could be here for weeks discusing this matter, so i think I had enough we could say the same thing over and over because everybody defends the person who they admire to the end of the world otherwise they're not true fans,
So I guess that makes me a 'true fan' now and not just jumping on the 'Kobe badwagon' as you told me earlier? I don't jump on bandwagons. You'll figure that out when football season rolls around and you see how shitty my team is now.
Quote:Originally posted by Vicious
Pippen, IMO is the hardest person to find a substitute for. He was an all star virtually every season, and was on he dream team as well. I think it is safe to say that he was one of the top 5 players in the league for a good 5 year stretch in there. He could handle the ball, create his own shot, did not mind being the 2nd option, and could defend any position on the court. There is noone in the league like him. Most equal person to fill in for him would be TMac I'd say. He has better offense than Pippen, but his defense is nowhere near as good.
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Before I make my long winded opinion I will state my team..I'm a Nj Nets fan..been a Nj Nets fan all my life..I'm 22 so I've seen my fair share of basketball, including the 80s style of basektball which is crompletely different from the style of basketball that is going on today...Anyway, I have been following this arguement from the beginning but some of the statements here are great but some are just riddiculous..Sometimes..It's just too difficult to compare players..MJ is MJ..No matter how much you hate the guy he still is the best...Kobe I dont think realize how easy he has it..He has Shaq..I can't name someone as dominate as Shaq in my lifetime ( yes, I know im only 22 but hey I cant say Wilt right
)..The guy is pretty much guaranteeing you an attempt at 2 pts whenever he feels like playing hard or coming to shape to play basketball that year..Only thing that can stop him is Hack-a-Shaq...Shaq FT% is about 50% and he's a carrer 27.0 ppg so if he had maybe a FT% of 70% then he could add 2 pts a game to his career ppg...Another thing the officials barely even call 3 in the Key on Shaq which makes it even easier for him to score..Kobe and MJ both have egos..Kobe demands a trade on draft day and hasn't even taken one jumpshot against legitimate competiton..Mike complains on how the Wizards suck midseason which to me was completely classless (yes, I recall the game he scored 40 on the Nets as a Wizard)..As for Coaches...I'm not going to sit here and say that Phil Jackson is an awesome coach or anything like that because he is just getting outcoached and exposed badly this series...Larry Brown will win this series and Phil Jackson can whistle all he wants and make his little triangles but it's not happening this time..The Pistons have "Rip"..People that have followed him since UConn can tell you the buy is a winner...He beat Duke by himself..Duke had 5 future NBA players (Elton Brand, Corey Magette, etc) You could counteraruge the comment that Kobe is better because he is playing in an era in which zone is legal but someone could say to you..How many Great Centers are their in the NBA right now that Kobe plays against? Personally, IMO I think Scotty is one of the most overated players in NBA history..He's not even in the top 30 all time stats in anything except for steals in which he is currently number 3..He's never taken a clutch shot in his life and used to get away with many reach in fouls (ask any NY Knick fan and he will tell you)...I would rather pick Robert Horry on my team than Scotty..I think they have the same amount of rings as well...Ironically, they play very similiar but I just never could stomcach Scotty..I always felt he was O.R. and proved it may times after the post Jordan era as many of the other Chicago Bull players (Weddington, Caffey, Longly, etc) have except for Kukoc maybe being the only exception...Also, making the dream team IMO doesn't mean much because the Olympics used to be about sending athletes that weren't professional to play overseas..now I think its pretty much a marketing scheme to get people to watch the NBA..Their ratings drop every year and even the Indy 500 did better than the playoffs...If I had to pick a modern player to compare him to maybe Lamar Odom rather T-Mac..I could go on this topic forever if given a chance too