Ryujin Wrote:Hmm...true most people are biased in some form or another, but that is not the point here. Firstly nobody "owns" an industry just because they did things early or started something, I mean Nintendo tried to put Atari out of bussiness and they succeeded and Atari tried the same to those that came before it. But I don't hear you (or anyone for that matter) crying about Atari.

That is simple business practice, if a company has made bad decisions and a different compnay comes along offering a better product (techinally anyway), then why should the older company somehow get special treatment or preferentiality? Simply because its older? If Nintendo have made alot of bad decisions and can't sell games to gamers then they deserve to go out of business, its nobody's fault but Nintendo's. Sure it would be a loss to the games industry, but big deal, companies go bankrupt all the time. Now I'm not saying that is going to happen, or is happening right now, I'm just saying in general.

Also your views on M$ prove to me that you are not that well informed and jump on the popular opinion band wagon. You see, its not Microsoft but Sony who are currently monopolising the hardware market, and have been doing so for a number of years now, which is obvious to anyone who bothers to simply look around, the evidence is in plain sight. Yet, I don't see you cursing Sony, or the Playstation brand for "killing" your "beloved" Nintendo.

You see Microsoft may monopolise the operating system market, but that is totally different from console hardware. So from their PC image, you see Microsoft as some kind of evil faceless corporation tyrant who is out to take over the gaming market for themselves and wants to kill all competiton and take over your soul. But if thats how you view it, then seeing as Sony has the most popular machine, wouldn't they be the ones doing it?

As for monopolising the market, every company in the world wants to be the sole provider for their market, its common sense, more market = more money. So just as you have taken someone elses image of Microsoft from a different market and twisted it around into an evil tyrant bent on market domination, then you must also view Nintendo as the plucky underdog, fighting the good fight against the evil corporations, delivering the last bastion of "real" gaming for the remaining few "true" gamers who are smart enough to buy their console. And as we know, everyone loves an underdog.

But in reality, Nintendo is a fallen tyrant of old, by your logic anyway. In the 8-bit era they monopolised the gaming market, brought in countless illegal and under the table business practices, bringing in rules that any company that makes a game for their console can never EVER make ANY game for any other console, these practices were later found to be illegal by the High-Court as they breached fair trade and competition laws. Yet, I didn't see you, defender of justice, starting any anti-Nintendo campaigns. Hell, I bet you didn't even know about any of this.

And yet you claim to be "loyal" to a company that you don't even know anything about really. I mean why have this misplaced loyalty to a company that just wants your money? like all companies. Nintendo doesn't care about you, your family, your likes and dislikes, all they care about is your money, like any other company. What do you think your loyalty will be somehow rewarded? will they suddenly give you a job for it? will they pey your rent when you really need it? will they pay your hospital bills and find you a girlfriend? No, nothing like that. so why be loyal to an organisiation that just wants your money?

I mean are you "loyal" to the company you buy lightbulbs from? and say "I love these lightbulbs, but I hate Lightbulb company B, they are evil and want to take over the market". Do you see people argueing over what lightbulb is best in a playground-esque days of the console wars style? no. Nor do you care who supplies your electricity, water, gas etc.. I don't see anyone with any particularly strong feelings one way or the other towards their electric company.

So having "loyalty" to a console/company and disliking another for the sole reason that it is not the one your loyal to is just stupid, and which is why I said "grow up and get over yourself" because it shows a very childish, immature and narrow-minded mentality on your part. Having loyalty to anyone or anything that just wants your money is stupid. Would you be loyal to your local con-man and not get conned by anyone else just because he knocked on your door first?.

So in conclusion, to have preferences is one thing, everyone does, there is nothing wrong with that, its just having an opinion. But to have a pre-decided like or dislike of something without knowing much about it at all, and without leaving any room that you could be wrong or simply judging things as they come, for no seriously valid reason. This is to be biased, and this is what I dislike about the games industry, the Nintendo breed of fanboy is especially bad, probably the worst around, and to be honest it pisses off non-biased people like myself who constantly have to defend things and try and make people see things as they are.

Ryo of Inferno Wrote:First of all I would like to compliment you on all the good points you have made. Next I

will try and dispute them one by one. Ok here goes...alot of the oppinion has to do with

the fact of what system, sports player, etc, you grew up with. As for the Atari I believe it

was a fair match with Nintendo I don't know becausee I just inherited it and the NES both

from my older siblings. I do agree with your second point however that if a company

makes bad decisions then it is no fault but their own. As for me not cursing Sony for

monopolising the hardware market it is simply because I view them as an equal to

Nintendo and could accept Nintendo's defeat at the hands of Sony. Microsoft however,

Was the newbie that jumped in and interrupted what I held as the sacred dual between

Nintendo and Sony. I am ok with Microsofts PC image but when they try to take over the

console business that is altogether different. When this happened the natural balance the

order in the gaming world became Chaos as an outsider seemed to be trying to control

both PC and Console games. A for Nintendo being the old tyrant that may be true as

busines is business or so they say. I might not have known all about what you were

talking about with the illegal stuff and all as I was probably too young at the time but, oh

well. In your seventh point I can see your logic as it does not benefit me one bit, however

it is a discomforting thought that something that you grew up with, that you thought would

always be there might dissapear. I don't know if you understand this concept or not but I

will try to make you understand in this reply to your next point. You say I should grow up

and get over myself because my loyalty is stupid? People her in the US once said that

about patriotism but that didn't stop me from showing it. Call it loyalty, call it gullibility,

call it passion, call it a sort of patriotism, the fact is that Microsoft didn't need to get into

the console business. It is a big enough corporation already. Heck I remember when

people used to joke around who would rule the world first. The choices were Disney,

Starbucks, and Microsoft. The point is that Microsoft seems to be in this for the fun of it

while Sony and Nintendo take this seriously. As for your con-man reference have you

ever heard the phrase, choosing the evil you know over the one you don't know. That is

the way I view Nintendo and Microsoft. I know I could be wrong and I never did insit I was

right. You accuse me of being a Nintendo "fanboy?" The truth is I actually enjoy games for

both Nintendo and from Sony. I have both systems as I like variety. However the fact still

remains that Microsoft is the newer company to the console gaming systems. If I sound

biased then I ams orry that you feel that way. However when you grow up with something

and you really enjoy it and a newcomer comes in and shifts the scales a little I'd like to

see how you react. You claim I'm judging things for no reason? All I see is that Nintendo

has become the underdog you mentioned because they weren't prepared for a 2 on 1 with

both Sony and Microsoft. I doubt that anyone would be. However it seems that you are

biased in a way as it seems you have something either against Nintendo or possibly Sony.

I could be wrong. The point is that people have differing vies on different subject and it is

wrong to assume the reason they have that view is so easily explained. I would like to see

your post on this as it seems to be turning into an interesting debate. Anyway that is all I

have to say for now.

-spike- Wrote:I hate starbucks, their drinks suck ass. Its like paying 7 bucks to buy a cup of shit.

Ryujin Wrote:Ok where to start...

You say that you believe that Nintendo and Atari and all the other companies at the time was fair, yet by your own admission you don't know enough about it to comment, so don't make assumptions.

Nextly, you say that Sony and Nintendo are equals?? Hold on, I just want to address this in itself before I go on with anything else. Firstly Nintendo has been in the gaming industry for a long time, they have established many franchises and have alot of gaming experience. Nintendo is a developer and a hardware manufacturer, Sony is not a developer, even though they own a few developement houses (same with Microsoft). Sony has a MASSIVE amount of money to throw behind their console compared to Nintendo, nearly as much as Microsoft. Sony has their fingers in ALOT of pies, movies, music, millions of different electronics and personal entertainment products. They are worth BILLIONS!!!. And as it stands, from the last generation and this one Sony has a HUGE market share over nintendo as far as consoles sold, game sales, and profits.

Now, when Sony first came into the market, they were the newcommer with the dissadvantage and they had to fight against the SEGA and Nintendo with their already established brand recognition and characters, because again, both SEGA and Nintendo are developers. So how you ever saw things as equal is beyond me. So I find it odd that you have so much hatred for Microsoft for being the "newcommer". Sony was the newcommer last generation and they have basically succeeded in all the things that you fear Microsoft may do. So..if by your logic, Microsoft bring out an X-box 2, will they be ok to like then?

As for that crap about the "natural balance being thrown into chaos", what the hell are you talking about? this is an ever changing market of products being sold to people for money. There is nothing natural about any of it, artificial products, being sold in a market created by an artificial society, for an artificial legal currency. You need to stop living in your fantasy world.

Again you seem to be fine about Nintendo being a "tyrant" and yet when you misspercieve Microsoft as it, then it is somehow wrong or evil?

As for growing up with certain brands, people do that all the time. I grew up with all the same gaming brands as you, the difference is that my mind and perception are not clouded by unfounded bias coupled missconceptions and ignorance about the truth.

As for loyalty and patriotism, I'll assume that you live in the US for now, could be wrong but here goes anyway. If you were truely "loyal" and "patriotic" then wouldn't you support the console that is made in your own country as opposed to machines and companies made in a foreign country, Japan?. Besides all I view "loyalty" and "patriotism" as are ways to maipulate people to an end. But thats for a different day.

As for Microsoft not needing to get into the games industry, the same could be said about Sony, who were a huge electronics and entertainment company, Nintendo itself was originally a playing card company, couldn't it be argued that they didn't "need" to get into the games industry?? Thats a foolish point and has no validity.

As for Microsoft not taking this seriously, thats pretty funny considering that they have brought about the most comprehensive online service to consoles ever, including both an ethernet card for connection to the internet and a Hard Drive built in. When Nintendo does not even have an online strategy, the only online game that they have is not even made by them, its made by Sega AND its a port of an old Dreamcast game.

Speaking of SEGA, it could be argued that Sony drove SEGA out of the hardware market, yet again I don't see you giving even the slightest thought to that. A 1 on 1 match between Sony and Nintendo? You seem to have forgotten SEGA who are no longer in hardware. Besides, its a dumb point, Microsofts console was announced long before the Gamecube was released, so its hardly like Sony and Ninendo were having this battle and Microsoft just jumped in out of the blue.

As for the 2 on one, its hard as if Microsoft and Sony are combining their efforts to rid the world of Nintendo.

As for your comment about me having something against Sony or Nintendo, yes I hate them both, thats why I have their consoles and play their games and enjoy them, and have done so in previous generations, its all my secret plan just to spite them

Of course I'm not biased, I really hate when fanboys try to make it out to seem that an unbiased person is biased just because they dissagree with them. If someone said something similar about Sony or Nintendo then I would defend them in the same way. I'm just trying to open your eyes to the reality of the situation.

And as far as I can tell by your post, Microsofts only "crime" in your eyes is that they did not release a console sooner. I mean if you had played on a Microsoft console as a kid would this debate be the other way around? its seems that way.

Which is why I would like you to grow up and stop being biased. Because it is foolish, I mean really think about it. Don't be so deluded.

Zagatto Wrote:As for Sega, they are still in the video game business. They just got out of the consoles and have been focusing on the software. This was a smart move for them because they have a larger audience to sell to and we benefit from this because Sega develops some great games.


Lastly... if I have to admire any game company, it's Neo Geo. The fact that they held on for so long catering to hard core gamers is worth my admiration. Anyone who has actually played a Neo Geo knows what a quality game machine is. Too bad they couldn't keep it up.

Ryujin Wrote:Oh my god...you are so deluded...you just don't get it at all.....I don't even think that there is a point in continueing this as I have already countered pretty much all of your points already.

Plus this is going nowhere....this is leaning away from the contructive spectrum of debate...

As for the fanboy comment, well yes I think you are. Granted your not as bad as some people I have met that are like "my conlosle r00ls j00!!!". But I still think that you are a fanboy. I'm basing this only on what you have said here, but it seems blatantly apparant. You view the other compnaies as "evil", you view Nintendo as "good", you don't back up your points or defend them in any decent way other than muttering on into this amazing dellusion that you have created in your head, as you've said you've grown up on Nintendo and you don't like change, you have freely admited that you are biased. All of these together constitute a fanboy in my eyes.

Zagatto Wrote:Before anyone else jumps on the "beat on Sony" bandwagon

Zagatto Wrote:My only complaint with a company is M$ and the way they have been doing business.

Zagatto Wrote:They decided to get into the game industry and are determined to take it over.

Zagatto Wrote:They courted a number of developers away from other platforms with lucarative contracts, deprived other systems from some solid games.

Zagatto Wrote:The biggest offense in my eyes is the fact that they continue to sell every unit at a loss trying to gain market shares rather than running a business plan that requires them to make a profit.

Zagatto Wrote:Undercutting is one thing but to run a negative profit line just to stay in the game doesn't make sense to me.