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Hah!!!!!! - Ka-Talliya - 12-10-2005
Zagatto Wrote:I think of shows like Cowboy Bebop and Last Exile and feel totally blown away by the quality of computer animation throughout both of those shows. Then I watch something like Heavy Metal 2000 and feel the urge to gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon after being subjected to floating items in front of great backgrounds.
For me, it's not about the technique used. It's more about execution and the quality of the story that was told. If the story isn't there then I don't care how pretty something is... it's just not worth my time.
Here, here!!
For me, I will sit through crappy animation if the story is engaging. Kinda like the older Final Fantasy Games...
Then again, I'm one of those people who reads giant novels...all the time.
Hah!!!!!! - Blight - 12-10-2005
WandererX12 Wrote:Blight, part of me wants to kick you in the teeth. But that would be wrong, just like your opinion.
J/k...about the opinion part.
First of all, the Japan loves new tech thing is more like the people that can afford it like it. A great deal of Japanese people don't live the 22nd century life, but it isn't fun to show that side of the country when you do a news story or press conference. Ask any of the people that have lived there and they would probably say it isn?t that spectacular in general. Only some parts shine and that is what you get to see. Don?t get me wrong, there is some really cool stuff going on there, but thinking they live like people do in every external commercial take on Japan is ignorant, or maybe exaggerated, of how things really are. Second, CGI lies in a different medium. So does stop motion. They use completely different techniques in the way they are developed. And because of that, they require people with different expertise from different fields. I?m not ostracizing anything bud, you?re non acknowledgment of the fact that they are not routine animation, and trying to generalize what their style is with a label that doesn't fit it, is.
I also don?t get why you would even joke about kicking me in the teeth. I said I liked it, it just isn?t Anime. And it isn?t. Toy Story isn?t a cartoon. Wallace and Grommet and NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS isn?t either. They have their own areas of specialization that the term anime doesn?t do justice. CGI is it?s own bag. It has moved away from being a device, like I think you still see it, and has come in to it?s own as an individual form. Calling it anime is wrong because you downplay its unique properties and the individualism possessed by CGI. Stop motion, CGI and anime are all animation, but animation is the proper umbrella title, anime is just one of them.
WandererX12 Wrote:Zoids, however, mixed the two very well in my opinion and gave me faith that the two styles could exist peacefully together.
I liked New Century X, which is what they showed on cartoon network with Liger Zero (Panzer Ruled!!!). They set it up like a sport, where their motivation was money, not friends or loyalty, and it worked a lot better than an adventure tale like Chaotic Century. It just had more, I don't know, legitimacy to it. All the Zoids where machines used to play in and the bad guys wear pretty much just the black market for all intents and purposes. They was no real evil threat, just money to be made. I guess it just made it not have that cheesy little kid and faithful robot save the world routine, since all they wanted to do was compete and make money. And yeah, it did blend well, and I consider it an anime all the way. I mean, after all, I don't consider the Matrix a CGI just because it has computer generated FX.
Hah!!!!!! - WandererX12 - 12-10-2005
Ill give in and agree with alot of what you said. I definatly misused the word cartoon, and shouldn't have overlooked all of traditional Japan. Yesterday I was energetic and felt like arguing over definitions and other meaningless points. Today however, I'm too tired to figure out my own opinion.
As for Zoids, I think I liked Chaotic Century better. Or maybe it was just a few of the characters, not the little kid or the damn t-rex thing, but his companians seemed really cool to me. Though it could have just been in comparasion to him. One thing I do remember is that at 6am, when your still half asleep, trying to figure out why all the characters and the plot have completely changed after missign just one episode is rather difficult.
Hah!!!!!! - gubi-gubi - 12-13-2005
Blight Wrote:I said I liked it, it just isn?t Anime. And it isn?t. Toy Story isn?t a cartoon. Wallace and Grommet and NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS isn?t either.
No but they are animation... Anime = animation. Appleseed is anime. It may look a bit different but it carries a story on from a well known anime with the same characters that look the same. If the show used characters that looked like real people (like photographic likeness) I might be able to see where you were comming from but Appleseed is well known for being anime.
Hah!!!!!! - Homeless Joe - 12-13-2005
gubi-gubi Wrote:No but they are animation... Anime = animation.i don't know if i agree with that. i mean yeah anime is short for animation, but i consider it a unique form of animation. cartoons are definitely not anime. i don't distinguish between anime and cartoons soley bassed on their origins, but more the style of art and story. most cartoons don't have much of a storyline, or if they do it's very loose. i guess a good way to describe it is that you can watch one episode and not be lost and still enjoy it. cartoons come in nice little bitsize episodes. but anime's tend to have long story lines, with a definite beginning and end. o and Ka-Talliya i wanted to comment about what you said earlier, about sitting through crappy animation if the story was engaging.....i wish i could =( but i like to watch anime because of the story and the art. if the visually the anime doesn't appeal to me, chances are i wont watch. i was watching ff unlimited late last night, my lil bro said it was really good. but the way it looked really was bugging me, like the characters were pasted into the scenes or something. i couldn't finish the first episode =( it's the same with manga, when i'm looking to buy a book, if i don't like the way the art looks, i wont ever buy it cuz i know it will just bug me.
Hah!!!!!! - Homeless Joe - 12-13-2005
p.s.....i love the nightmare before christmas
Hah!!!!!! - Blight - 12-13-2005
Homeless joe pretty much has said what I want to say, just without my patience-trying modishness (that is a word too; I swear)
gubi-gubi Wrote:No but they are animation... Anime = animation. Appleseed is anime. It may look a bit different but it carries a story on from a well known anime with the same characters that look the same. If the show used characters that looked like real people (like photographic likeness) I might be able to see where you were comming from but Appleseed is well known for being anime.
Where I disagree with this is that if someone were to take a traditional films story and turn it in to an anime, then it would be an anime, not a film. It works in reverse the same way. The anime has been turned into CGI, changing its class. Of course it is still animation, but the anime is the wrong classification for the kind of animation it is. The new version of Appleseed does things traditional Japanese animation can't, and this differentiates it from what the Anime medium has to offer in terms of look. And looks matter the most when trying to classify a show or movie because they are all essentially doing the same thing, trying to tell a story. The way they do it have subtle differences however. The look of Anime and CGI have significant differences and stay separate from each other because of them. Too many people think that anime is animation from Japan only, and end their definition there. It is more than that. Anime is a style. So while my specific classifications maybe seem petty to some people, to people that focus their work within a style it is only obvious. So while you are correct in saying that Anime=Animation, it is more like
Anime
Stop Motion > Animation
CGI
In which all three styles are just derivatives of animation.
Hah!!!!!! - Zagatto - 12-14-2005
I guess it all boils down to which definition you look at anime being. The same can be said for the definition of "cartoon" or "animated movie". Personally, I don't care for the labels too much as long as I get to watch movies and TV shows that I enjoy.
I'll jump on the bandwagon and say that I really enjoy Nightmare Before Christmas (it's been one of Katina's fave movies lately so I've seen it a dozen times in the past month) but I typically don't consider it to be a cartoon or anime even though it is an animated movie.
Things get a bit harder to define with a movie like The Incredibles. This is another great movie that is clearly animated but not in the traditional 2d sense of things. Some people will call this a cartoon because of the larger than life aspect to it while others will deny it status as a cartoon by it's virtue of being computer animated. Only the most extreme adherance to the definition of anime will include The Incredible in a list of anime.
I've got things to do today but I love this topic.
Rather than saying what is and what isn't anime, I'd like to see peoples different definitions of anime. I know that in Japan the term anime is a very broad term that covers all animation, not just cartoons produced there. If I were speaking to an average japanese person it's very likely that their definition of anime would include Nightmare Before Christmas and The Incredibles in it.
Now that anime is an english word though it has taken on a new definition.
Here's a definition that I swiped from http://www.whatis.com that I don't really agree with but it's a good one to get the ball rolling.
"Anime (pronounced AH-nee-may) is a term for a style of Japanese comic book and video cartoon animation in which the main characters have large doe-like eyes. Many Web sites are devoted to anime. Anime is the prevalent style in Japanese comic books or manga. In Japan, the comic book is a popular form of entertainment for adults as well as for younger audiences. Story lines are often very sophisticated and complex and extend into episodic series. Typical anime themes or genres include Ninja and other martial arts; the supernatural or horror story; the romance; and science fiction including robots and space ships. Foils for the main characters, including robots, monsters, or just plain bad people, often lack the doe-eyed quality."
Hah!!!!!! - Homeless Joe - 12-15-2005
have you seen Gankutsuou? it's pretty much the story of the count of monte cristo but takes place far in the future. normally i don't like so much cgi animation but this one looks so cool. the way they used it really is unique and the story is fantastic....at least so far i'm only on the 5 episode, lol.
Hah!!!!!! - Elcoholic - 12-16-2005
For me anime is cartoons from japan (including pokemon and stuff). If I'd base it by drawing style then I would have a hard time fitting Ghibli stuff in since that's drawn more realistic. If I'd base it by story incredibles stuff would fit into the anime category.
I always used to think anime is all about action, robots, sex and gore (and that is what attracted me to anime) but now that i'm into it i see sports anime, comedy, love stories. Everything we have in real life tv gets animated. I'm still most into action and fighting stuff and don't really see the appeal of an animated love story or comedy since I like to see real people portray those emotions. I watch anime for the awesome imagination that japanese artists have. I want to see shows that just can't be made in real life tv shows. Anime is perfect for that and Japanse are masters in thinking up stories that no westerner would ever think of. Alot of the subjects they bring up interest me like powers of the mind/superpowers, humans destroying the enviroment, advanced technology's and science fiction. Movie technology is catching up but anime can still make shows that aren't possible in real life.
(btw, where's that dragonballz movie. Anyone know what's up with that one? Perfect example of a show that's hard to surpass the anime with in live action)
Hah!!!!!! - Homeless Joe - 12-16-2005
Homeless Joe Wrote:have you seen Gankutsuou? it's pretty much the story of the count of monte cristo but takes place far in the future. normally i don't like so much cgi animation but this one looks so cool. the way they used it really is unique and the story is fantastic....at least so far i'm only on the 5 episode, lol.
well i just finished watching it and it was really good, i definitely recommend it. the style is like nothing i've seen before and the story was awesome, i mean i guess i'd have to be being bassed on the count of monte cristo, anyways i highly recommend watching it, you can get the fansub online, don't think you can buy it yet.
Hah!!!!!! - Cyrus - 12-20-2005
the first dvd is out (just so ya know
Hah!!!!!! - Puppet Master - 12-20-2005
Cyrus Wrote:the first dvd is out (just so ya know
If your talking about Gankutsuou it's second DVD will be out soon too.
Hah!!!!!! - Homeless Joe - 12-20-2005
o, well i got the entire series already =) you guys should check it out though.
Hah!!!!!! - Puppet Master - 12-20-2005
Homeless Joe Wrote:o, well i got the entire series already =) you guys should check it out though.
Only thing is that the art style is so unsual that it will turn alot of people away.