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Cidien Wrote:By the way both lincoln and reagan were hated in their time. Bush will probably be remembered as a great president in the future too...

Nah, he will be remembered as the president who ruined the good relations the US had with other countries and the unconditional trust those countries had in you. He'll be remembred for almost bankrupting your country. He'll be known for scandal after scandal like the Abu-Graib tortures, foreign prisons, illegaly holding citizens in guantanamo bay. He'll be remembered for starting 2 wars, neither of which he finished.

Now, for balance I must add that this is ofcourse a unique time in history. The US is under attack from a new force that the west has no experiece in fighting. Bush and his government (or any government) doesn't know what to do to fight this war so its all down to experimenting.
'Lets invade Afghanistan and see if that helps.'
'No?, well lets restrict the laws of our own citizens and see what that comes up with.' 'Doesn't work? Well, lets invade Iraq and see if we can get a democracy in the middle east.'
'What about all these suspected terrorists? Ahh, lets just put them away and we'll see what's left of them in 10 years. We can't proof their guilt be we also can't let them go.'

This is the stuff I don't agree with. What I do agree with is that something must be done to stop terrorists cause I do believe that what they want is to kill all non-muslims and make a muslim world order, worse than anything Bush can come up with.
In my country people can't be locked up for preparing an terrorist act or agreeing with terrorist motives. We've had guys with materials for bombs and blueprints of airports/nuclear facilities/governmental offices in their closets and they were still let go because there wasn't any proof they would have gone through with the thing. That's the same as an Palestinian getting arrested in Isreal with a explosive belt on and getting released with a fine for illegal fireworks.

Rules have to be changed with the change of times. The question is which rules and where's the line? And there's not alot of countries you can look to for advice since this situation is new for everyone.

And BTW, please tell me there will be a court case to determin if the tapping of phones was illegal or not? I mean the law says its illegal, Bush says he's allowed to do it through the patriot act. A court must decide who's right, right? If stuff like this is swept under the carpet than the US does have a great problem. Its not good when a president can do what he wants without being able to be held accountable.

Cidien Wrote:Um, according to the new law I didn't do anything wrong in the flame forum. You should go read it.

News.com Wrote:In other words, it's OK to flame someone on a mailing list or in a blog as long as you do it under your real name. Thank Congress for small favors, I guess.

Now unles your real name is Cidien then I guess you broke the law...

elcoholic Wrote:Its not good when a president can do what he wants without being able to be held accountable.

exactly. clinton gets his dick sucked and we want to impeach him. bush leds us into war based on lies and now thousands of americans, not to mention an untold number of iraq citizens are dead, and that's ok? the constitution has built in checks and balances and this administration is tiping the scale. judge alito will just make things worse, he is a federalist you know. who cares about abortion, what i'm worried about is appointing judges who believe the president should have more power.

elcoholic Wrote:Nah, he will be remembered as the president who ruined the good relations the US had with other countries and the unconditional trust those countries had in you.

the sad thing is most people in america don't know or don't care. i was traveling through europe this summer and our international relations are just not what they used to be. thanks to this administrations decisions and the publics apathetic sheep like following of it.

Just read the first article. Found this.

"If you send an annoying message via the United States Post Office, do you have to reveal your identity?"

I don't know for sure, but I tried sending a package through the post office and forgot my return address and they wouldn't send it without one. While that's not my name it does say where it's from.

And this law isn't going to work as an "I'm going to sue you because you're annoying me" law. I doubt there are many judges, if any, that will grant someone their case based on that. All the defendant would have to argue is his first amendment rights. Plus I havn't noticed anything about annoying annonymous people. Could I really be held accountable for annoying bearhugs03 online?

as far as the stupid laws are concerned. yes its stupid to send someone to jail or fine them for saying something bad online. Just as if i called someone stupid to their face and got sent to jail for it. The way bush is trying to get rid of all imigrants of all kinds from this country without thinking of the economical reactions is stupid too. Furthermore Bush has done many stupid things.

Some of these matter some really don't

The govt has tapped phone lines and so forth before they were allowed to anyways they just pass laws so that they can legally do it so that they don't have to deal with court.

I can see where bush is comming from with some of the laws he helps pass but what really upsets me is not that he is taking away some of our freedoms but the fact that he is spending taxpayer dollars on things that really don't matter.

I much rather have the money that is spent dealing with the whole internet insults thing go into building low cost housing for college students or the homeless or even something else. How about some money going into alternative sources of car fuel.

Americans have way to much freedom as it is. Well it's not so much that they have to much but it is that they misuse them to much. Our society has gotten to the point where they misuse their freedoms to do completely ludicrous thing. such as sewing someone for something that is utterly crazy. Yet the courts have to abide by their wishes because they throw a hissy fit over something as stupid as the neighbors dog pooping in their lawn or a prank phone call or whatever.

Hence free speach and the whole i can say anything i want blah blah blah crap.
Obviously when the constitution was written it wasn't advocating the use of violent hate speech and so forth.
I personally don't care if the govt takes away a lot of my privacy short of having a camera in my room and a chip in my hand so that they know where i am every day.
I really have nothing to hide and if someone does then they shouldn't be hiding it in the first place.

The Govt needs certain things that will allow them to find out what they need to and in many ways they havn't abused these rights (in some ways they have) ((the detaine situation)

I would be more ok with what bush is doing if

1: he wasn't spending prescious money

2: the govt was more moral then we all know it is

And ciden you gotta remember anything is possible with money and i will bet you money we will see people most likely rich who will be sewing people and claim it as internet harrassment and winning because their lawyers are better.

just a thought

[QUOTE=elcoholic]Nah, he will be remembered as the president who ruined the good relations the US had with other countries and the unconditional trust those countries had in you.

actually i seriously doubt other countries had so called good relations and unconditional trust in america. I believe they are just scared and not in a economic posistion to argue with america.

Kinda like america is a big bully and if you don't play by their rules you don't play at all (cuba)

and to what ciden said in his last post

And ciden you gotta remember anything is possible with money and i will bet you money we will see people most likely rich who will be sewing people and claim it as internet harrassment and winning because their lawyers are better.

just a thought

Cyrus Wrote:actually i seriously doubt other countries had so called good relations and unconditional trust in america. I believe they are just scared and not in a economic posistion to argue with america.

have you talked to people from other countries? i assume that would be the best way to know for sure how they felt about us. i have, and trust me, we used to have good relations, now must really really don't like us. on top of that the us is in so much debt i can't believe it. didn't this adminstration borrow more money than all previous ones? didn't they also label more documents top secret, hiding them from the public, than all before them combined? and how can someome ever say the wouldn't mind their personal freedoms taken from them. do you know what that means? you want to give a corrupt government more power to do whatever they want?

.......woot i just noticed that's my 4 20 post :p

Homeless Joe Wrote:have you talked to people from other countries? i assume that would be the best way to know for sure how they felt about us. i have, and trust me, we used to have good relations, now must really really don't like us. on top of that the us is in so much debt i can't believe it. didn't this adminstration borrow more money than all previous ones? didn't they also label more documents top secret, hiding them from the public, than all before them combined? and how can someome ever say the wouldn't mind their personal freedoms taken from them. do you know what that means? you want to give a corrupt government more power to do whatever they want?

The way I see it (and im not generalising) but America used to be something to be proud about when looked at from the outside but now all the patriotism and 'pride' is over the top. I went to America recently and there were all these flags everywhere. It just seems like boasting. America has a lot of problems yet you see all these people with there flags so proud to be American and saying stuff like Bush was elected by God etc... It's anoying to other countries and seems arogant... I am not saying this is how I feel but this is the image America gives off.

Exactly. When Clinton was president there was hardly any critique over US foreign policy, certainly not ammong normal citizens like us(Clinton is a political genius and I think he's one of the best presidents the US has had). Then 911 came and the whole world was beside the US. Two years later and things are totaly reversed largly thanks to the 'you're with us or against us' policy. Gubi said it well.

And Cyrus, your whole thing about privacy rights I completely agree with. I wouldn't mind my phones to be tapped by the government either since I too have nothing to hide, atleast nothing that should interest them . But the thing is Bush wasn't allowed to do that and so has broken the rules. Remember Clinton almost got thrown out of the whitehouse because he was embarsed to admit he got his cock sucked in the office? Well, this is way worse in my eyes and a serious threat of democracy if the president is allowed to do illegal things, no matter how little they may seem. That's why I really hope that a court will decide if it was or wasn't allowed.

well when i said that stuff about foreign relations i didn't mean the general public i meant the democrats kings queens whatnot. I could be wrong but i believe there has been a secret feeling and kinda low shadowy thought of america for a while. Whether it seems to show up in the general publics eyes or not. Then again i could always be wrong.

Elchoholic good point yeah i really don't care that he taps phone furthermore if he woulda be like at one of his press conferences just said ok we are gonna do this even thought its not a law id be like alright no biggy but to not say anything yeah thats pretty un cool

The fucked up thing is the goverment has probably been doing that for years. Just because we don't know doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

gubi-gubi Wrote:The way I see it (and im not generalising) but America used to be something to be proud about when looked at from the outside but now all the patriotism and 'pride' is over the top. I went to America recently and there were all these flags everywhere. It just seems like boasting. America has a lot of problems yet you see all these people with there flags so proud to be American and saying stuff like Bush was elected by God etc... It's anoying to other countries and seems arogant... I am not saying this is how I feel but this is the image America gives off.

Maybe you should should put a flag of your country up. Nothing wrong with being proud of ones country. If you don't like it tough. It's not to be annoying, it's because they love their country.

"Remember Clinton almost got thrown out of the whitehouse because he was embarsed to admit he got his cock sucked in the office? "

He almost got thrown out because he lied, he knew it and everyone else knew it. Also, please dont come back with Bush lied. That would be really stupid and i'm personally tired of hearing it. (that was not meant to sound hostile btw)

Cidien Wrote:He almost got thrown out because he lied, he knew it and everyone else knew it. Also, please dont come back with Bush lied. That would be really stupid and i'm personally tired of hearing it. (that was not meant to sound hostile btw)

Yeah, but looking back at it it was all a bit silly won't you admit. It would have looked very stupid if he'd lost his job, which he did excelent, over that. He shouldn't have been asked the question to begin with.