onizuka17711 Wrote:When you're fed some of that messed up junk your entire life, what do you expect? I didn't really mean the religion itself, more of the way people make cetain acts sound as though they are "the will of god".
Which is a large reason why I support the war in Iraq and I really hope we help them set up schools there to educate these people so they don't grow up like that. Hopefully that will help. Then we just need to kill off all the old terrorists so they can't feed that bullcrap to their kids before they get to school.
geo85 Wrote:I havent gone to church for about 6 years now simply bacause organized religion bothers me. I dont want to argue with anyone just hear me out, I find that in the churches I went to it got to a point where it was just them telling you that everyone that isnt christian is evil and wrong and is going to hell, but in the same sense this religion is based on a saviour that preached love and compassion. If they think those people are going to hell then why dont they follow what their religion tells them and pray for those peoples souls not hate them or try to harm them. It comes down to dogmatic-brainwashing which is in essence what the terrorists follow.
That's why I like certain lutheran churches in my area over denominations such as catholics. You aren't likely to find a lutheran that will say you're going to hell if you don't believe in Jesus. Ya know what - if God really is a compassionate merciful God then he wouldn't make such a strict rule that would screw people over like that. I'll never go into another catholic church personally. I was treated so rudely there. I'm not even sure how they knew I wasn't catholic. I couldn't take communion either because I guess I don't believe it turns into the actual physical blood and body of Christ. Where did they come up with that anyways? When you puke it up does it magically turn back or what? (sorry if I offended anyone lol - i've just had too many catholics be rude to me - I know you aren't all like that) The pastor or whatever he was called coulda said please instead of telling me to "sit, you can't take communion here" or something to that effect.
Cidien Wrote:Which is a large reason why I support the war in Iraq and I really hope we help them set up schools there to educate these people so they don't grow up like that. Hopefully that will help. Then we just need to kill off all the old terrorists so they can't feed that bullcrap to their kids before they get to school.
Wow! I don't know where to start. Yes, attack a country - either be killed or forced to obey someone who has no right to instruct you on what to do, and be thankfull that they are building you schools. Theres just all sorts of wrong in that paragraph you made I don't know where start. Why don't we just become a bunch of Nazi's and dictate them oh how to think, feel and act - after all savages they are that know only one thing, become a terroist when you grow up.
Andromeda18_ Wrote:The same thing was done in the name of the Christian god. That's what the Crusades were all about, killing the infidels. Many of the greatest wars were started in the name of some god and some religion. Believing in a higher, benevolent power doesn't really stop people from commiting atrocities.
Well, the real story there is in fact the corrupt church of the time. It was even worse than the situation now, with the inquisition and all. It's greed and yearning for the advanced technology and goods of the Middle East made people run over there and just pillage and steal. On one crusade, they went to the Byzantine Empire, which was Eastern Orthodox Christian, and pillaged the capital. But essentially, it is the same BS. The people actually committing these acts are pawns of the greedy and wanting extremists.
Not sure how to reply to your post either...
1) I really get pissed when anyone compares the U.S. and what we are doing to nazis or hitler. I just shows you dont know what the hell you're talking about.
2) I didn't call them savages.
3) Do you really think it's wrong to try to help for an education system and do you really think it won't help? I didn't say create a school system and shove propaganda down their throats.
Man i'm having trouble finding words for this....
"Why don't we just become a bunch of Nazi's and dictate them oh how to think, feel and act"
This line is irritating me. Would you rather terrorists continue to indoctinate kids into their way of thinking without giving them an alternate view? I just don't know how to respond to this - it's too stupid. I don't wanna start a flame war on this but really - think before you post stupid crap like that.
We have the same problem in america with people like klu klux klan members. Better education I believe has helped tremendously in getting rid of those racist bastards. There still the problem though of parents indoctrinating them to believe the same crap they do. Eduction doesn't completely stomp it out - but I believe it's a great place to start.
animeshop Wrote:Wow! I don't know where to start. Yes, attack a country - either be killed or forced to obey someone who has no right to instruct you on what to do, and be thankfull that they are building you schools. Theres just all sorts of wrong in that paragraph you made I don't know where start. Why don't we just become a bunch of Nazi's and dictate them oh how to think, feel and act - after all savages they are that know only one thing, become a terroist when you grow up.
Oh yes, and having a dictator that has committed mass murder crimes against humanity with gas on villages just cause they are a different ethnicity is SOOO much better. WTF. Saying the U.S. presence is an al noble one would be me trying to feed peeps BS, but regardless of anything any one can say against it, life WILL be better for the Iraqis after the people have control of their government and country. But the bottom line of why we are over there is national security. I?m not talking about WMD?s, I?m talking about a second (even though synthesized) ally in the middle east. The other is Israel, and we pay millions of dollars a year to HELP keep them (or more specifically, their military) afloat. With Iran just voting in a new hard line president, I very happy that we have a bigger hand in the Middle East. Our government is sneaky, but they plan ahead.
And animeshop:
animeshop Wrote:I don't know where to start. Yes, attack a country - either be killed or forced to obey someone who has no right to instruct you on what to do, and be thankful that they are building you schools.
WTF do you think their last leader did? You need pay attention to facts buddy.
Cidien Wrote:Not sure how to reply to your post either...
1) I really get pissed when anyone compares the U.S. and what we are doing to nazis or hitler. I just shows you dont know what the hell you're talking about.
2) I didn't call them savages.
3) Do you really think it's wrong to try to help for an education system and do you really think it won't help? I didn't say create a school system and shove propaganda down their throats.
Man i'm having trouble finding words for this....
"Why don't we just become a bunch of Nazi's and dictate them oh how to think, feel and act"
This line is irritating me. Would you rather terrorists continue to indoctinate kids into their way of thinking without giving them an alternate view? I just don't know how to respond to this - it's too stupid. I don't wanna start a flame war on this but really - think before you post stupid crap like that.
We have the same problem in america with people like klu klux klan members. Better education I believe has helped tremendously in getting rid of those racist bastards. There still the problem though of parents indoctrinating them to believe the same crap they do. Eduction doesn't completely stomp it out - but I believe it's a great place to start.
We don't give a fuck about Iraq. We never have. People are dying over there for pointless reasons. What about Iran? What about North Korea? What about Africa? Politicians don't care. We had no reason to go into Iraq. I understand wanting to help the people but this is turning into another Vietnam. The people have to want to be helped. If we were really so rightious in all of this, do you really think we would be primarily the only country over there? I wouldn't call us Nazi's, but we are no saints in this matter either. I do support the troups, now that we are there, but we shouldn't be.
As for the KKK and radicals, education doesn't help. People have the ability to choose, no matter what they are shown. You can only teach so much to someone with a narrow mind.
onizuka17711 Wrote:but this is turning into another Vietnam.
As for the KKK and radicals, education doesn't help. People have the ability to choose, no matter what they are shown. You can only teach so much to someone with a narrow mind.
That's kinda funny. I've been hearing that Vietnam line since we lost about 200 troops over there. I'll tell ya what. You go look at the statistics for dead and wounded in a single month in vietnam. Then you look at the statistics for the ENTIRE time we've been in Iraq. After doing so either admit that was a stupid comment or continue to make yourself look like a chimp.
And the way a person is raised and the kind of people around them radically influences the type of person someone becomes. Not many people become kkk and/or nazis if they didn't grow up with that kinda shit. People don't become narrow minded overnight for no reason.
Cidien Wrote:That's kinda funny. I've been hearing that Vietnam line since we lost about 200 troops over there. I'll tell ya what. You go look at the statistics for dead and wounded in a single month in vietnam. Then you look at the statistics for the ENTIRE time we've been in Iraq. After doing so either admit that was a stupid comment or continue to make yourself look like a chimp.
And the way a person is raised and the kind of people around them radically influences the type of person someone becomes. Not many people become kkk and/or nazis if they didn't grow up with that kinda shit. People don't become narrow minded overnight for no reason.
I didn't say it
was another Vietnam. Look at it from a situational view. We are losing less troups, but the situation is the primarily the same. Any way you look at it, this "war on terrorism" is impossible to win. Hell, the troups hardly even know who the enemy is. How can you win? We're just throwing people away, just like in Vietnam. It's also a political war, just like in Vietnam. We should have used all of that money and man power to fix somewhere already fucked up than create a new one. Somehow I highly doubt we'll help fix up Iraq after we're done trashing it, just like last time...
You can't blame everything on your upbringing. People can see what is around them and make decisions for themselves. That's like blaming your parents for you having a shit life. If it sucks so much,
do something about it.
I suppose I'll continue to "look like a chimp" :p ...
Blight Wrote:Oh yes, and having a dictator that has committed mass murder crimes against humanity with gas on villages just cause they are a different ethnicity is SOOO much better. WTF.
Yeh that's pretty much what I was going to say. Sadam has been stopped and it will be a better place. He even had childrens prisons! The war on terror is pointless though but i'm all for stopping dictators. We should go into other countries aswell.
Blight Wrote:And animeshop: WTF do you think their last leader did? You need pay attention to facts buddy.
So you guys should just do exactly the same thing?
Cidien Wrote:This line is irritating me. Would you rather terrorists continue to indoctinate kids into their way of thinking without giving them an alternate view? I just don't know how to respond to this - it's too stupid. I don't wanna start a flame war on this but really - think before you post stupid crap like that.
Your thinking as if the whole country thinks like that, there are some sick people there - yeh just like there are sick people everywhere, but you don't go to their country and shove your morality lessons on them. The country had a bad leader, yes, but it doesn't mean the people have bad minds. You act as if these people are like dogs - who need to be taught what is wrong and what is right.
Its true though that education does help, but you can't honestly think that this is a good reason for the war, it was never about that - its just something they were left to deal with after the damage they did.
And btw, I never said you were Nazi's. I was referring to what you think is right for the country can be something that is forced and unwanted - and if your gonna do that, then you may as well become dictators.
I won't go into this any further, as we obviously have different views about this - and we can go round in circles, so I'll end my 2 cents here.
There were much better countries to focus on than Iraq. Just so its said at least once, the US put Sadam into power to over throw the previous dictator, we also gave binladen the money training and weapons he needed to fight off russia but then turned and used to start al-queada,(part of the reason binladen hates the US is beacause after giving them the waepons and training to fight off russia we left and their country was in complete dissarray and needed rebuliding but that was too much for us)we also went into africa during the cold war to spy on russia and gave the leaders in the area weapons and military training to let us stay, those leaders are some of the people committing genocide in africa right now. So all of these are noble causes then.
The only thing that has come out of the war in Iraq besides a lot of US soilders dying is Bush lining his pockets with millions because the oil prices are soo high oh and cheney too.
animeshop Wrote:So you guys should just do exactly the same thing?
Your thinking as if the whole country thinks like that, there are some sick people there - yeh just like there are sick people everywhere, but you don't go to their country and shove your morality lessons on them. The country had a bad leader, yes, but it doesn't mean the people have bad minds. You act as if these people are like dogs - who need to be taught what is wrong and what is right.
Its true though that education does help, but you can't honestly think that this is a good reason for the war, it was never about that - its just something they were left to deal with after the damage they did.
And btw, I never said you were Nazi's. I was referring to what you think is right for the country can be something that is forced and unwanted - and if your gonna do that, then you may as well become dictators.
I won't go into this any further, as we obviously have different views about this - and we can go round in circles, so I'll end my 2 cents here.
1) What the hell do you think we're doing over there? Torturing innocent civilians? Gassing villages to test our weapons? Seriously - stop saying we're doing the same thing as saddam it's just making you look stupid.
2) How the hell am I making them sound like dogs? Are you saying now that humans can't be taught different ways to live? Is it really wrong? I'm sorry I guess you're right. We should say screw it and just leave. Fuck 'em. Screw the whole country.
"but you can't honestly think that this is a good reason for the war"
Sounds like a better reason than most wars....
geo85 Wrote:There were much better countries to focus on than Iraq. Just so its said at least once, the US put Sadam into power to over throw the previous dictator, we also gave binladen the money training and weapons he needed to fight off russia but then turned and used to start al-queada,(part of the reason binladen hates the US is beacause after giving them the waepons and training to fight off russia we left and their country was in complete dissarray and needed rebuliding but that was too much for us)we also went into africa during the cold war to spy on russia and gave the leaders in the area weapons and military training to let us stay, those leaders are some of the people committing genocide in africa right now. So all of these are noble causes then.
The only thing that has come out of the war in Iraq besides a lot of US soilders dying is Bush lining his pockets with millions because the oil prices are soo high oh and cheney too.
A very intelligent post.
The only thing you have to remember is thoughs decisions were made at different times, by different administrations, who had no foresight. They were all about fighting off the U.S.S.R. at the time, and had tunnel vision because of it. That is what worries me about pulling out now. If we did, every one in the country would probably hate us for doing a half-assed job and leave them in a worse situation than they started. If we leave now, another dictator WILL rise to power. If we stay until the country is strong enough in both military power and confident enough in their own devices of thought and spirit, then Iraq will stand on its own. It will be freed from internal chaotic turbulence, and will experience peace, with out having a foot on their necks. (cause they had peace before we went over there, but peace under a dictator, is just repression of self)
And like I said before, there is more at stake here for the U.S. then just freeing a country. Making a strong ally in the Middle East is what I perceive to be our truest objective over there. There would be so many benefits to having them with us, it is hard to articulate them all. But our Intel we can gather from them would be the most pertinent one.
I do have to agree that money is made off oil though. But we aren't getting any more from anywhere. The fighting just causes prices to rise on what we already have (gas jumped 25 cents a gallon two days ago :mad: ), but it is also building materials have sky rocketed as well. I found this out when we had to buy lumber for the reconstruction of our house last year.
animeshop Wrote:So you guys should just do exactly the same thing?
I have to ask where you get your information. Do you make it up? Or are you one of the people that just thinks its cool to hate the war in Iraq but have no sense at all of the facts. We set up a democratic election a while back; we train their police forces to fight the terrorist of their own country. Do the exact same thing? God dude, please, please think before you speak.