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Quote:Originally posted by Batz Kage
[B]This is probably one of the better conversations I've had in a LOOONG time.

I'm having fun too!

My eyes are killing me so my line of thought might not be very coherent, but this will still fulfil the common courtesy of a reply.

First off I don't think you're too stupid to recognise good writing, Batz. However, please remember that I'm only working off what you have written. In your first post the keywords were "idiot", "junk" and "retarded" without qualification. You came across as some who knew nothing or at least very little just as if someone posted "Berserk sucks!" or something similar. It's only in your later posts that you began to elaborate a little more and my replies reflected this fact.

You're going to have to come up with a reason as to why Shakespeare was an idiot otherwise that's an opinion without basis, which I certainly won't take seriously.

Shakespeare wasn't the best at everything, but he has very few peers when it comes to plays. I find his use of language extraordinarily rich and the way he explores certain themes intriguing.

Do I find his themes and subjects relevant today? Yes, of course. Jealousy, pride, power, ambition, freedom, dictatorship are all explored by Shakespeare. Julius Caesar, for example, can fit into all manner of political situations. There were also some teen movies that were based on Shakespeare albeit with a modern twist, e.g. 10 Things I Hate About You and O to name two.

I won't contest the fact that scientists coin terms - there are a great many scientists that I admire and I think several rappers are using and challenging the English language far more than other people, including writers.

There are pieces of Modern Art that I do admire such the work of Picasso, Dali, etc, although I prefer Rennaissance artists, particularly Titian. Don't confuse Modern Art with Contemporary Art, which includes artists such as Damian Hirst and Tracey Emin.

You have to be more specific when say writing today is better. Don't forget that the novel as we know it wasn't a form of writing in Shakespeare's time. You have to compare plays and sonnets and the English language itself.

As for considering and valuing your opinion? I've already covered that, but I'll go over it again. You say Shakespeare is an idiot. Why? You've read two or so of his plays and didn't like them. Fine, but why are they "junk"? These are throwaway statements, but you can build them into an opinion.

You say modern writing is better, but also admit to rarely reading and the stuff you do read is mostly manga and short stories. Others may disagree but that isn't a wide enough field of experience for me to value your opinion on Shakespeare, literature or writing in general modern or otherwise.

The same situation occurs with regards to anime. I've seen some people post opinions about certain series or genres and when challenged admit to have not watched much. No one has said their opinion was wrong, but not many people valued it. Hell, there are reviews on this very site that are written on the basis of having seen only one or two episodes. One person has admitted to watching just five minutes of each disc.

That's enough for now. It's midnight and I'm tired so good night.

I'd have to say you ought to pick and choose good works by SHakespeare. I'll use a few examples of the few I've read. First of all, let me get out of the way that reading any shakespeare book in this day and age is a daunting task which is usually less so only for those who have studied English lit to an extent that allows them to fully understand what's going on. Otherwise, it's usually the epitome of "classic lit" that most of us dread so fervently.

Beyond that, the premise of many of his stories are very cool, if not the story itself. The last shakespeare play I was reading, macbeth, was very hard to understand, and I was practically looking through the side notes as much as the story itself, and some stories just smack of dumb, like King Lear (I really dispised that story). However, Othello was one of the books that i thoroughly enjoyed in my 10th grade lit class.

I typically garner no enjoyment in reading a shakespeare play, since the language is so different than our everyday English that we use now (I might as well try reading a large French novel with only 5 or so years of gradeschool worth of the language), I will loose too much of the meaning. I think the point I've been trying to get at is that many stories were pretty cool if you get a synopsis of it, but, we as non-classical lit students don't really get the fine nuances that others do.

also, my current book is "The Eye of the World" by Robert Jordan. His Wheel of Time series is a fairly expansive set that is already on the 10th book. I'm finding it to be a big page turner and I've enjoyed this book more than I've enjoyed a book in a long time. Probably the last book I enjoyed so thoroughly would have to have been Magic the Gathering's "The Brother's War" by Jeff Grubb. Being the nerdy card player I was back then, I obviously had to read the book that explained the coolest story of all of magic then, antiquities. However, this book is most likely going to replace that book as one of my favorites, just because of how Epic the book is and how well the author, Jordan explains everything in such lush detail and uses such great imagery.

Quote:Originally posted by Prophet Hero
Good for you, Kak! It's not often that you get someone raving about reading on forums (aside from book forums I suppose).

Reading is the one pastime I cannot go a day without. It transcends TV, films, music, anime and - this is the big one for me - computer and video games.

I will agree with you, only so much that music seems to take precedence over reading, and for me, reading also includes news articles, or documents and information on subject matter of interest to me (whether it's cars, space travel, politics,etc I like to just around and read for a while).

Prophet Hero, I admit complete & utter defeat at your hands, something that rarely happens, now we must find another topic at which to debate Although I'll still never like Shakespear, which reminds me, tomarrow I have a test on some junk about him, then I a biography test onhim :S

As for actual reading, besides what I have to read for school (normally two books every nine weeks) I've read and liked Magic the Gathering: Invasion, The Silver Kiss, Blood & Chocolate, Julius Caesar, Hitchhikers Guide to something I don't remember, and every shortt story posted on lotus rose's website. Also, if you count my own junk, I've read Violet 1, 2, & 3, Violet Jr ch.1.

I hate reading most of the time, but I love to write, if only my writing skills reflected my grade in english class.

im really glad that turned out the way it did. prophet hero, youre my hero.
heh, something that rarely happens. batz, youve only just turned 16, you will definitely be losing alot of debates in your lifetime, save you gain all of the knowledge possessed by the human race. you might as well get used to it and step down as "rarely defeated."

man i am being rediculously harsh and cynical tonight. i should stop.

-Vile

Kak: You're approach is quite right - pick some Shakespeare that might interest you. When I was in school Macbeth was the first Shakespeare I was introduced to and I was hooked - murder, power, magic and ambition. (Incidentally, it's been touted that Tolkien felt cheated when he discovered the true nature of Birnam Wood moving and thus created the Ents). I soon discovered that I enjoyed the tragedy and history plays, but not the comedies - a woman disguised as a man might have been hilarious in the 1600s, but not so much when I was reading them. However, I accepted Portia in The Merchant of Venice because the play is so good.

The side notes are there to be read - everybody reads them. It can be hard to read something that you're supposed to which you are supposed to listen although it's not a case of dub vs sub with Shakespeare!

If anyone finds Shakespeare tough perhaps they try watching films based on his plays. Throne of Blood by Kurosawa is magnificent and is basically Macbeth. Ran by the same director is based on King Lear.

Interesting point about the language of today being different. America was more or less founded on the English that Shakespeare used. It's been argued that if the colonists made their journey at any other time English in America could evolved so much differently. Read Made in America by Bill Bryson. It's an interesting account of how the English language developed in America. It should be required reading for people in the UK who moan about 'Americanisms' without basis!

Robert Jordan is a quality Fantasy writer. I started reading him nearly 10 years ago and quickly caught up to the latest hardback release (Book 7, I think). So I decided to stop reading, wait and buy the paperbacks without reading them and then start the reading the whole series in one go (it was promised that The Wheel of Time would be 10-book series). Of course Jordan has decided to go beyond 10 books. So I have all 10 books so far although I only read 7 of them and that was years ago.

Fantasy has become an overcrowded genre and there is a lot of crap floating around out there. Jordan is one of the few that seems to have put some thought into the world he has created rather than just conjured up some characters with outlandish names and a dash of magic and a pinch of orcs.

Reading for me isn't just books either. I have to read a newspaper every day (a broadsheet for news and comment) and a tabloid to see what the UK public wants, which is usually sleaze, gossip and hatred. I used to subscribe to Time (because it was cheap), but I found to be a dull read and ended binning each issue unread.

Batz You don't have to look at it as a defeat - I wasn't trying to score points and humiliate you.

I suppose the one irony of the situation is that you seem to be studying more books at school than I did (I read in my own freetime instead) and I never had to be tested on Shakespeare - write essays on his work certainly, but not on his life and background (what's the point?)

I'm also sure you'll be pleased to know :p that Julius Caesar is my favourite Shakespeare play. If you're still curious about modern day relevance take another look at some of the things that happen: a dictator with overwhelming power, assassination, stirring speeches to rouse mob mentality, battles and war in the name of 'freedom' and what is 'right'.

Anyway, good luck in your test!

Prophet Hero, you fielded every possible comment I wanted to make about the whole Shakespeare fiasco. Good job!

I have a love for books, particularly those about foreign language. I can have just as much fun with a book of that type as I could with any fantasy novel. I think that I may be a linguist at heart. Don't get me wrong I do love to read other types of books, but books on language (of any kind) get my mind pumping the most.


I have to agree with your comment on Throne of Blood. It did my favorite Shakespeare tale justice on every level(as far as a re-telling can).


Macbeth will always hold a very special place in my heart. It shows you just what power will do to a man. I suggest to those here whom haven't read (Batz you should go give it the full once over) the play yet to do yourself a favor and pick it up. It is well worth the time spent. The play is wonderful on all counts.

Quote:Originally posted by Vile
im really glad that turned out the way it did. prophet hero, youre my hero.
heh, something that rarely happens. batz, youve only just turned 16, you will definitely be losing alot of debates in your lifetime, save you gain all of the knowledge possessed by the human race. you might as well get used to it and step down as "rarely defeated."

man i am being rediculously harsh and cynical tonight. i should stop.

-Vile

I wasn't meaning that I'm rarely wrong, just I'm a "man", I'm never wrong, even when I am wrong! :p

well, at least you know what it is to be a man. =)

-Vile

I have an entire section of my website devoted to what it means to be a man, & why I'm not one in the eyes of my peers. Which sounds weird, but just means I'm not pig headed.

Anyways, back to reading, anyone that's into some stuff here & there should check out Lotus Rose. I know I say that all the time, but only because quite a bit of his stuff is very good.
http://www.geocities.com/lotus_rose2/

Also did any of you ever read any of my junk? I know I tend to have bad grammar & complicated formats, but I've actually written some junk that's quite good. Anyways, reason for asking is, since yall spend time reading, how about critizing my work?

Prophet,
I agree that the fantasy genre is crowded with terrible books and sad rip offs on Tolkien. However, every now and then I find a jewel. You should read the "Rhapsody" trilogy by Elizabeth Hayden and "The Dark Jewels" trilogy by Anne Bishop. Those are two of the best fantasy trilogies I've read, along with "Dragonlance Chronicles" and the "Dragonlance Legends" trilogies by Margeret Weis and Tracy Hickman.

Just trying to pas along some of these jewels.

Vyncent

I used to be into the Fantasy genre of literature, but that was way back in like 5th and 6th grade (I read the first two books of Melanie Rawn's Exiles trilogy and still have fond memories from both, and yes I did read all thousand pages of each).

However, since I've grown up more I seem to prefer older, more classical literature. Not ancient, but like nineteenth century and early twentieth century novels. My favorite authors so far are Goethe, Hemingway, and Fitzgerald.

I still manage to read a graphic novel (Watchmen!), western lit novel (Border Trilogy!) or detective novel (LA Confidential!) in every once in a while, but those are usually the best of their genres. Going to a private high school has jaded me considerably against modern literature.

I also read some poetry or try to at least once in a while. I usually just end up reading Chuck Bukowski though, definitely my favorite poet.

Getting a little of topic but you gotta hand it to Shakespeare
his legacy has been and will be HAUNTING school kids of literally every nation who are forced to study his stuff

now thats a legacy!

Something to add: I think that the worst books to read would have to be the books that win awards like the Pulitzer. Usually full of boring and "deep" language that typically is more of a burden to read through than enjoyable at all. My mom is of the same opinion (and that says a lot coming from a Ph.D).

Shakespeare is good stuff. Though I'd rather see his plays on stage than read them, any day.

I just finished reading John Gardner's Grendel. I recommend it to those of you who like philosophical books. My brain is a little fried right now, because I had to write a follow-up essay about whether or not life is meaningless. x__X

FYI: Grendel is a modern retelling of the Anglo-Saxon epic Beowulf. But don't let the connection misguide you. There are QUITE a few differences...