I've noticed an ongoing trend at anime conventions and such that has been disturbing me. It seems Evangelion is becoming the next show that is "cool" to make fun of. Before it was largely DBZ, everybody seems to hate you at these events if you even mention it despite the fact that 75% of the people hating on you probably watched it with a passion back in the day.
So now I see Evangelion following the same trend, replacing DBZ as the next series that seems to make you hip and cool at these conventions if you are making fun of it. Although Eva hasn't reached the level of total hatred that DBZ has, I think it is heading in that direction.
I think it is unfortunate that both of these series which I have enjoyed for different reasons, have to end up this way. Maybe it's the unfortunate aspect of anime fans who seem to have some automatic dislike switch for anything that has a spec of popularity. God forbid someone other than them would happen to like the same thing. I don't know, just something I noticed. It seems any time an anime becomes popular that it will instantly be despised by the more hardcore anime fans. Why is this?
Personaly I don't like anything I've been into for a long time & then little snot nossed brats come up acting like they know it all. Like with DBZ one kid at my school who didn't know what it was till it was on CN wanted claim he knew more about it then another kid whose seen the fansubs, with the fansubs being uncut.
Which then again I'm against all things mainstream. I turned my back, well not totally, but some on DBZ because the only way I can watch it is cut on CN which I don't like, plus I found much better (in my opinion) series to watch. I also didn't like it at first when Adult Swim showed Trigun. Because now all the kids around here who barely know a thing about it will begin to run around & talk like they know it all. In conclusion I hate all people like me
SurferX - here's my look on your topic...
First you are right in some parts... Things that become mainstream often end up alienating the ones that in part brought them there. I know for a fact that after waiting for days for an episode of ___________ to final finish downloading and watching it with all it joy and splender, That seeing it end up on Toonami cut and dryed out for American tot's leaves my paleet a little bland.
And you see there in turn is the problem. We as anime fans want are shows to be on the TV at primetime but we also want are fellow anime watchers to purest not socialist. What do I mean you ask...?
Simple a socalist is one who watches when it's on tv but really doesn't know anything else. Like what other works the creator has done or what other shows the voice actor has worked... But they clame to be devoted to the show..
A purest is a true anime fan knows the show the manga and even the songs artist it is no longer a time to watch a anime on tv. But it is a time of unbridal bliss...
It's like a saying I love that new song by Three Doors Down to a guy who can play it on the Guitar. Yea you like the song but do you know anything about it... compared to him probly not...
That is true, being a Kenshin fan myself I cringe at the dub they are showing on CN thinking how no one will really get to feel how the characters were originally intended to be. I guess I can't blame Media Blasters too much for the horrible dub, I mean it is 95 episodes and all and they are a small company. At least they left the name Rurouni Kenshin and didn't do something totally ridiculous and call it "Samurai X" like those jackasses at ADV did. I'm happy that they are going to get less sales on their Samurai X DVD's than they could have because the name recognition from CN won't be there. I hope they learn from this.
However I can appreciate the mainstream and what it has done for anime in the U.S. This past Anime Expo I believe neared around 20,000 in attendance and things just keep getting bigger. Regular movie stores now have specific anime sections for their DVD's and we're getting many more things like an anime cable channel (dubbed to begin with but will be offered completely subbed soon), more theatrical releases, more licensed mangas, more readily available anime-related merchandise, and more acceptance of animation as a form of adult entertainment in the U.S.
Again there is the other side of it though, if U.S. licensors decide that Americanizing their scripts is the way to win over the mass market then there is the problem of us getting poorly translated titles because it was decided that American audiences wouldn't "understand" it. As well as wanting to get penetration of anime into the mass market I would also like the see the Japanese cultural aspects of it penetrate as well but it seems the U.S. licensors don't want to do that. I just know I'm going to die after seeing what ADV does to Azumanga Daioh.
Personally, it doesn't bother me what other people like or don't like. I still have some DBZ shirts from a while back that I wear from time to time.
As for the Kenshin dub, I did not think it was bad at all. I think alot of you don't listen to enough dubs to know what a truly bad dub is. You cna't just compare it to the Japanese voices and since they don't match up, say that it's a bad dub job. You want to hear a bad dub job, go and listen to the last Kenshin OVA that just came out.
As for Samurai X, I think that might have been more of a licensing issue adn they had to change the name. That's what usually happens. But I could be wrong in this case.
I like the Kenshin dub except for the "I do believe that, that I do" and all that gayness. The voices are pretty good imo.
Mainstream releases don't really ruin things. I have a weird feeling when people talk to me about Hakusho when I've been watching it for several years but that's not the point. If anything be happy about. Popularity means more series for serious otaku and some understanding of anime.
As for DBZ fan subs that your friend has Batz. They're not. They were subtitled for the Japanese population in Hawaii from a company known as the Nippon Golden Network.
SurferX, the dub was really well done for Kenshin and I prefer it to the sub. I really don't like it when genders are switched for VAs, and Kenshin should not sound like a 15 year old girl.
A few points I want to make on this topic:
A) Evangelion has been around for 8 years, and it was Gainax's biggest release and it's cashcow. Thus, they feel the need to oversaturate the market with Evangelion stuff (as they are re-re-releasing Eva yet again).
B) It was the anime that started the "tormented" character with a "deep plot and characters". The elitist anime fans (the ones who refer to it as Shin-Seiki Evangelion since "it's what the Japanese called it", even though the Japanese also gave it the name Neon Genesis Evangelion
) grabbed it and ran, and tried to act elitist by "interpreting" the "deep" plot that was Eva, thus inflating their Ego.
C)I think that the thing about DBZ was that it was the first big anime hit here in America short of GITS and Akira. Kids (at the age the show was aiming for) gobbled it up, and the older elitist anime fans scoffed that someone else was getting into their hobby...as if it was theirs only
example:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?da...6-06&res=l
D) We're sick of hearing how Deep Evangelion is. It's like beating a dead horse.
E) We can't enjoy anime the same as the Japanese, considering most of us aren't native Japanese nor speak Fluent Japanese. As for Rurouni Kenshin, most English people have no clue what Rurouni is (same with other names like Ai Yori Aoshi, or Seikai no Senki), which is why a name change is warranted. When you have another name like Gundam which has no meaning in either language, it doesn't really matter. And as for Kenshin Sub vs. Dub, who gives a fuck how the Japanese felt when they watched it? It's all about your own Enjoyment, not theirs and replicating their enjoyment. Personally I think Kenshin in the Japanese version sounded awful.
Morgorath: I don't think their is a "true" and "untrue" or "fake" anime fan, it's all in levels of fandom, as in I'm a major fan, I buy everything, or I'm a minor fan, I watch whatever is on TV.
Well, my paarents don't fork over the money for me to buy new animes, nor can i get a job quite yet to buy some myself. So sometimes I watch Adult Swim and see if there are any shows I really wanna work towards getting. That's how I started loving InuYasha so much. Now I own almost the whole first season(minus the last disc) But it's not all that bad.
I agree with alot of your points. I enjoy watching raw anime (and japanese television) because I enjoy japanese. I used to get pissed off when I heard what this 'American' company had done. Now I don't care, because I can't be forced to listen to it, so if someone wants to hear it that way it is thier business. Yet I do encourage people to try out the japanese track though just to hear another language besides your own.
I haven't read this whole conversation, but I'll just say, as a film major with emphasis in animation, having seen absolutely tons of it from all countries and time periods, Neon Genesis Evangelion is one of the finest pieces of artwork I have ever seen in this field. As far as Japan's contribution to animation goes, in my mind it is topped only by Cowboy Bebop. As a philosopher and a Buddhist, I think it's message is possibly one of the most potent and relevant ever delivered in this medium, being only rivaled by perhaps Grave of the Fireflies.
And yes, I have seen a LOT of anime, piles and piles of it (far from just mainstream releases). Whenever I see someone making fun of Eva, I either suspect they are too dim to understand the breadth of it's truths or they are too much of a poser to really appreciate art.
Oh yes, and I will also say, regarding Kenshin, the english voice acting isn't great, but I'll always take english voice acting for these reasons.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/columns/....php?id=11
Although every series I own I will always watch through once each way =) With Kenshin, there is a certain charm to the authenticity and beauty of the Japanese language in that context.
I used to be one of the people who didn't like people who only liked dubs, but now that's about the only thing I like to watch. Although there are some titles (Trigun) that I prefer the subs to the dub.
I l;ike eva as entertainment, but as a deep and philosophical artistic entity, I think it's total hog-wash. Frankly I'm sick of people putting so much stock into it. Why? Well, first I think that if any show (regardless of whatever medium it's produced in) is going to have a relevent meaning, it's got to be realistic. Even when you go beyond the mechs, the angels and the scandal, the characters are far from realistic. basically they take a character flaw, exploit and magnify it a few hundred times. I seriously doubt someone is tragically meek like Shinji (ie, can never be beyond meek no matter his/her accomplishments or the praise they receive). I doubt anyone will have a mental breakdown and explosion a la Asuka, just from not being as talented as someone else.
Second, Eva's "deeper" moments are expounded using techno-babble and psycho-babble. The best example is the episode where Eva-01 and Shinji are swallowed up by the mini-black hole in Tokyo-3. None of the jargon they use is real or relevent, but it's supposedly very deep. And of course the next episode after Eva-01 absorbes Shinji.
Anyways, to make my point, people have this tendandcy to surmise messages out of a show by putting elements of the said show that really don't mean anything (a la Symbolism). Symbolism can be a good and bad thing. The symbolism in Animal farm about the Soviet Leaders is far different than the Symbolism in Lord of the Flies about civilization.
I'll agree that Eva has a much deeper "back story" or whatever you want to call it because it does draw a lot of inspiration and symbols from many religions. People who are farily well-versed in religion should have a bit deeper understanding of the show than somebody who has never studied religion. However, I agree with Kakomu that people play this up wayyyyy too much and make Eva out to be some absolutely ingenious artistic endevour.
Basically to me Eva is a lot like most Modern Art, if you have the background and can understand it, it can be pretty cool. But then there are people who will take it and just play it up so much that it almost makes you sick.
For anyone who thinks EVA was the first series to have a character in torment, you need to look at your information. The series Super Bestial Machine God Dancougar had people in constant torment whether it be from their own downfalls or how they were hurt by others and feel worthless. EVA's plot is beyond old, Gigantor people. Might it be a interesting release on something? Yes. Is it the ultimate of anime? Not really.